Zaire247@hotmail.com: Podcast Interview
===

[00:00:00] let's say a woman comes and

she's having super crazy menstrual cycles

to the point where she has to

get the pain medication.

Mm-hmm. You know, on board

the first day she has

super clots is super heavy.

She has all the irritability,

like, you know, just

like literally she hates her menses

every month because it's just, ugh.

It is a death sentence for her, right.

So as a clinical herbalist and having a

conversation with somebody like that,

I'm going to ask her what's going on?

I need a food diary.

Let me look at your food diary.

Let's assess this.

What kind of medications are you on?

What do you do for a job,

are you in a job

where you're on your feet for, eight to

10 hours a day running around

like most nurses?

Or are you sitting at

a desk typing all day?

Are you a truck driver?

Are you a stay at home mom?

What are all these different components

that are causing your menses

to be so uncomfortable for you.

Right? And then on top of that,

I'm gonna ask you too. Okay.

So [00:01:00] let's look at some of the relationships

you have with people, is there

some trauma trapped in your body that

you, haven't resolved or haven't

reckoned with that's causing all of this?

This imbalance within your womb space.

So as a clinical herbalist,

I'm gonna have that conversation.

We're gonna handle all those areas to see

what is the actual root, of the imbalance.

​

Hello, and welcome to the Midwifery Wisdom Podcast. To all our listeners,

I am Shiphrah Israel,

I am a student midwife, a doula,

podcast host here to have conversations

relevant to our birthing world,

midwives, and beyond. I have the pleasure

of having Zaire Sabb here with us today.

Clinical herbalist amongst many other things.

Aire welcome. I always say that it's

easiest to tell your own story,

so tell us a little bit about [00:02:00] yourself and

how you became known as the Modern Day Medicine woman.

Peace and blessings everyone.

Thank you for having me, Shiphrah

This is such an honor to be here with you today.

Okay. So a little bit about me.

I've always been that one person in the community,

in your neighborhood, in corporate America.

Every time someone got sick. It's like,

oh, don't go to the doctor.

Just take some garlic with honey

or take some lemon tea or

maybe get this plant, do this, do this and do this.

That's always been my thing since

I was a little kid. As I got older, I needed to,

oh, I wanted to find a way that

I could incorporate that into

everyday life, you know?

So for a moment I actually turned away

from it and actually went into allopathic medicine

where I became a advanced practicing nurse.

My specialty within that particular space was,

pediatric cardiac transplant.

One of the things that I started seeing.

Was an interesting dynamic [00:03:00] in

demographics of the client,

of the patients I would take care of.

There was, one group of patients who

always seemed to have,

structural challenges, so to speak.

And then there was another group that

would have, metabolic challenges,

you know, and when I started

having deeper conversation with those families,

I found out that there was

a lot of miseducation and or no education

about proper prenatal care.

There was a lot of implicit biasness happening.

A lot of not being heard from, parents

and families and stuff.

And, you know, I'm a Leo, so, you know,

we can't just, you can't just give us anything,

just expect us to accept it, right.

So I started, having more conversations

with providers within the hospital space

and, it became a little contentious.

So I started easing out of the allopathic space

and going into [00:04:00] midwifery.

Actually started out as a doula,

my very first, client as a doula, my trainer,

and my client said

I had no business being a doula.

Because I just knew too much information and was doing too much stuff.

So after about a year as a doula,

I started transitioning and learning midwifery.

So I am actually what's considered a

traditional midwife and what a traditional midwife is

we are someone who combines

both the spiritual aspects of birth,

the birthing space,

as well as the technical stuff, right?

And we actually will work from

day one as an apprentice versus going to,

grad school, nursing grad school, and then

you know, going into, practicum CPMs,

have to do a lot of, MEAC,

where they have to do, you know,

to find somebody to check them off on things.

So from day one, I started apprenticing

versus theory first.

So I did my theory [00:05:00] and my

practicum all at the same time.

I was trained by the late great, who was a

grand midwife in Georgia.

And for anybody who don't know

anything about the grand midwives,

literally they are the OGs in the birth space.

These are women who have literally,

if you ask them what jobs they ever had,

they'll tell you the only job they've ever

had was catching babies,

they learn from their mothers or their

grandmothers or, community mothers

and that's all they've ever

done is just catch babies.

I was working with her for

about five years now in the midwifery space,

For about five years.

So in tandem to that,

I said I, as a child,

I was always one playing

in the dirt trying to heal everybody

with my mud pies.

Even within the allopathic space,

I was always talking to my clients.

Their families about different things

they could do to help themselves holistically

so they don't have to keep

ending back up in the hospital.

Whether it was advising them on [00:06:00] nutritional,

realities, so to speak,

or just better health practices in general.

So before I even got into midwifery.

I was working as a herbalist,

a self-taught herbalist.

Once I left the allopathic medicine space,

I started, well, not started,

I went to bona logos in Clayton, Georgia,

where I studied under, Ms. Patricia Christie Howe.

And then I moved even further

into my studies by going to Africa.

And learning under, chief, Erasa from EBITDA

Nigeria International Green Circle,

and then working with, chief Vanko Pula

with Sable Wellness outta Lagos, Nigeria.

Mm-hmm.

And so that whole roundabout,

that's how we came to where I am now.

I started my own practice, Mystic Mama Herbals.

[00:07:00] I'm the owner and creator,

curator of it what I wanted to do was

get ahold of people.

Before it became a problem,

within a lot of our communities,

regardless of skin tone there is a huge

disconnect from what's right,

what's wrong, what's normal,

what's abnormal,

what's common versus abnormal,

so I married my midwifery

with my herbalism.

I am a clinical herbalist midwife,

mainly because with the clinical part,

I know how to read blood work.

I know how to read, imaging results,

and I help translate that to whoever I'm working with.

Mm-hmm. And so in that space,

I'm actually even going further

where I have gotten my

functional medicine component.

And I'm also a doctoral student of natural medicine.

By August next year I should

have my doctorate and, you know,

be able to have like some [00:08:00] real,

like the big letters behind the name.

So yeah, so that's kind of like the long,

short way around how.

I get to where I am.

A lot of watering and seeds went into this, you know?

Mm-hmm.

Beautiful fruit.

Exactly. Initially you were herbalists,

but self-taught.

Mm-hmm.

And then now you consider yourself

to be a clinical herbalist.

What differentiating factor makes

you a clinical herbalist for me,

there's a responsibility attached to it.

Mm-hmm.

So right now,

let's say in your garden you had echinacea, okay?

Mm-hmm. In reality, if you know

how to use echinacea, you could make the tea,

make the tincture, whatever, and you can

give some to somebody that came to you.

And they were having some,

you know, some challenges.

So maybe some immune challenges,

technically you would be considered an herbalist.

Mm-hmm. That's not necessarily,

that doesn't include you into an accountability.

If this person let's say

they have an allergic reaction to [00:09:00] it.

You didn't do a full assessment,

you didn't do nothing.

You just had a person call you up and say,

Hey, Shiphrah I noticed

you had echinacea in your garden.

Can you make me a tea??

When you become a clinical herbalist,

there is a level of responsibility and

accountability because you're actually going

to look at the whole person.

And you're gonna help with all the interconnectedness.

So a good example would be,

let's say a woman comes and

she's having super crazy menstrual cycles

to the point where she has to

get the pain medication.

Mm-hmm. You know, on board

the first day she has

super clots is super heavy.

She has all the irritability,

like, you know, just

like literally she hates her menses

every month because it's just, ugh.

It is a death sentence for her, right.

So as a clinical herbalist and having a

conversation with somebody like that,

I'm going to ask her what's going on?

I need a food diary.

Let me look at your food diary.

Let's assess [00:10:00] this.

What kind of medications are you on?

What do you do for a job,

are you in a job

where you're on your feet for, eight to

10 hours a day running around

like most nurses?

Or are you sitting at

a desk typing all day?

Are you a truck driver?

Are you a stay at home mom?

What are all these different components

that are causing your menses

to be so uncomfortable for you.

Right? And then on top of that,

I'm gonna ask you too. Okay.

So let's look at some of the relationships

you have with people, is there

some trauma trapped in your body that

you, haven't resolved or haven't

reckoned with that's causing all of this?

This imbalance within your womb space.

So as a clinical herbalist,

I'm gonna have that conversation.

We're gonna handle all those areas to see

what is the actual root, of the imbalance.

Whereas, another herbalist may

not even go that deep, they just might be,

oh, okay, we'll have some cramp bark.

Right. And make sure you don't eat

no [00:11:00] ice before your menses.

Right. So it's the level of, it's the depth,

you know, it's the level of "in your business,"

so to speak. And I think that's what makes a difference.

Whereas like a community herbalist.

A community herbalist, that's gonna be

more so your people who have,

blanket formulas to help with situations.

So pretty much like if you were to

go into a vitamin shop or something like that,

you know, you don't really know the people there.

They don't know you. All you do is go in and say,

Hey, I've been, you know,

I had a cold the other day. I need some stuff.

Okay, well there's vitamin C over there.

A community herbalist will have

blanket formulas or cookie cutter formulas.

Right, and help with certain, you know, imbalances.

Whereas a clinical herbalist is gonna sit there

and we're gonna actually nitpick it and customize

it to whatever it is that you have

going on [00:12:00] based on your constitution,

based on how you live your life,

so let's say you're a construction worker,

I can't give you five different

formulas to take in one day.

It's just not gonna happen.

I probably got one time throughout the day

to make sure you take something

and it may be a tea versus a tincture

or something like that.

So that's kind of the, like, the depth of how it goes.

For the listeners who are in all of your story of,

you know, you learn through herbalist in Georgia.

Mm-hmm.

Nigeria and Africa, a very grand way

of coming to this knowledge for someone saying,

well, I would love to grow from being a garden herbalist,

for example, community herbalist,

to being a clinical herbalist who don't

have access to going to Nigeria and

to the elders that you may have encountered.

How would you advise someone to enter

into a more clinical space of herbalism?

Okay, so there's levels to this.

Understand one, I [00:13:00] have a very science mind.

So for me, I'm never satisfied with just

knowing Echinacea works for this.

Okay. Well, why? What is it about that particular

plant taken in this particular space?

Makes it do what it do.

Mechanism.

Exactly. You know, how does it actually work?

If you are a science geek like myself

and take the deep dive, there are tons, tons

and tons of university degrees and stuff

like that you can take but honestly,

just literally taking the step to go through

a foundational class.

The foundations class is everything, right?

So in a foundation, urbanism class,

you learn the botany of a plant.

You actually learn all those key components.

The pharmacological, aspects of the plant,

all the phytonutrients, all the herbal actions.

You learn actually what plants do.

I teach a foundation,

a class called Rooster [00:14:00] Remedies,

and that's what we go over,

like the first two months.

That's what we're going over is like,

what is it about this particular plant?

How do you even find it in real life?

Because one of, like for me,

I refuse to call anybody a herbalist

that doesn't know what echinacea

looks like in real life.

There are a lot of herbalists out there

who only order herbs online

and they only get 'em dried.

Right. But they have 'em growing in their yard

and have no clue what they look like.

Mm-hmm. Right.

Take a foundational foundations class.

Definitely learn what's growing around you.

One of my mentors throughout

my life always told me, he said, you need

to be able to go into anybody's neighborhood

on the planet anywhere and find at least

five plants that could help you do

what you need to get done.

Literally recognizing what's growing around

us because this stuff is not just in the air, you know,

like literally it's in your yard, what

I challenge my students to do,

[00:15:00] sometimes I'll have them, not mow their lawn

for like a month.

Now mind you, if you know, if your

HOA is sending, you know,

hate mail, do what you gotta do.

Yeah. Right.

No, we are not trying to get no citations

up in here, but you know, let it grow wild.

And then there's a book called

Newcombs Wildflower Guide.

Literally take that book and go through

your backyard and try to see what's

growing in your backyard.

Right? And then, so like down here in the south,

you know, we got red clover all over the place.

Red clover and white clover all over the place.

That's fantastic for the kidneys.

Not the banana planting,

but the actual plant planted,

you know. You'd be surprised.

Some people both like, oh,

we gonna go get the bonnet.

No, that's right. I'm like, oh,

I love a planting.

Exactly.

That's not what we're talking about, you know?

But we have planting that

grows here on the ground,

which is fantastic for the skin.

It's [00:16:00] a fantastic tissue repair.

Everybody knows we got dandelion.

We have dandelion for days.

Perfect for detoxing for, it's a diuretic.

It's anti, it is anti-inflammatory.

It is nutritive. Every part of it can be used,

it can be used for coffee.

Like it is all the things.

Literally just taking the time and

seeing what's in your yard is like

the first step with the way

healthcare is going with the way society

is going with the way access to certain things are going.

If we don't advocate for ourselves,

if we don't know that I have a

plant in my backyard that can do X amount of things,

we're just gonna be sheep.

You know what I'm saying?

It is like just laying your life out to whatever

modern medicine decides to do with you,

when the entire time you had

a whole plant in your yard for free.

You could be drinking tea,

making your tinctures,

eating it every day, whatever.

My two [00:17:00] biggest things would be to start there,

do a foundations class, and

then learn what is around you.

Start with those two things.

If you don't wanna do the class,

that's fine. You can be self-taught.

Just get the right information, you know?

TikTok University is not always the best.

It's a little deeper than that.

Believe it or not, if you were

gonna do online free learning,

I would rather you, do YouTube over

TikTok, because there are legitimate lectures.

On YouTube, they're like two or three hours long

versus the, what is it?

TikTok is what, a minute and a half,

two minutes, or whatever,

if that even throughout a book for

people to be able to read.

That's mm-hmm.

Is definitely a

great feature as well.

But there's books that'll help you.

Yeah, tons of books.

I understand that you have a

book that you have written as well.

Can you tell us a little bit?

Yes.

So, my book is called Herbal Harmony,

a comprehensive guide to using herbs

to help with reproductive health.

And literally what I did is I combined

all [00:18:00] of my information into one space.

One of the things that I work with a lot is

educating people in terms of

how you got from point A to point B.

Mm-hmm.

And how and why is it now C.

Example, fibroids, for example.

A lot of people don't understand that

fibroids did not start on Monday,

and you got diagnosed on Tuesday.

It's 2025 now.

So the fibroids started maybe like in 2020.

It started like in 2015.

And single client I talk to,

they always say, well, no one ever told me.

Well, the thing about allopathic medicine

is that it has to reach a certain level

in order for them to acknowledge it

and do something about it.

So a lot of times I'll tell them,

go back and look at your exams

or whatnot from, different x-rays

or different providers in the past,

because a lot of times the

information is sitting right there,

but because it wasn't large enough

or you weren't complaining about it enough.

They just, got swipe to the [00:19:00] left,

so to speak. So within the book,

I talk about hormone imbalances,

a lot of times, people don't understand

that this whole life is a dance.

The body is such a beautiful thing,

but I promise you, with the

wrong misstep in this dance.

You're dancing by yourself, right?

Mm-hmm.

Because it's a, it is a real thing,

like people don't understand, like,

so example, one of the things

I talk about is unresolved emotions, right?

Every single person listening,

I promise you, if you go back into your history.

Your life on this planet.

There was a point in time where you

took a l where there was a situation happen.

You felt as if you were, unvalidated,

you were wronged or whatever,

and for whatever reason,

instead of going scorched earth

he's like, you know what?

I'm gonna give you this one.

I'm gonna take the L on this one.

I'm gonna sit back and just deal with it.

Now, you said that out your mouth,

but your heart was still like, oh no,

I'm gonna hold this.

I'm gonna [00:20:00] hold this 'cause it hurt me really bad, right?

But what you do is you put it on the cabinet

and decide to deal with it later,

but you never get back to it.

Now the energy of whatever that particular thing was.

Over time, it starts to build and

build until it becomes something pathological,

which could be in the form of a

cyst on the womb space somewhere.

Could be super extra painful.

menses could be

super extra clotty

menses, stuff like that.

But it all came because you did not release

the energy of whatever that thing

that you put up was.

Right. So that's the first part

the second part is because

now you have this mens situation,

you are putting your body into

a state of free fall almost every month.

Right? And because of this free fall,

you may inadvertently causing damage

to your body because of the amount

of stress that's [00:21:00] involved with, like,

if you know your mens is.

Going to take you out every month.

The trepidation of knowing

that time is coming up,

it starts to cause anxiety in the body over time.

Constant anxiety causes issues with the thyroid,

causes issues in the gut.

Okay, now you have IBS.

So it went from something out here in

the energetic world, and now it's a full blown.

Now I gotta go to the gastroenterologist

and get proton, you know, PPIs or whatever.

In the book I spend a lot of time talking about that.

I also talk about, the anatomy and physiology.

A lot of us don't know what we have down there.

You know, we, we know like, you know,

the big players, you know,

we have ovaries and the fallopian tube,

you know, the big players.

But all the other little pieces and

how they work and how they interconnect,

don't even know.

And what's even crazier is when

I was talking with some other

practitioners about the book.

We all [00:22:00] agree.

We don't remember talking about this in anatomy

and physiology class,

we talked about birth in terms of,

okay, the woman gets pregnant and

then nine months and, you know,

month one this was happening with the baby,

month two, and so forth.

But never talked about

what was going on with the body.

Like what are the main, key players,

anatomically even with menopause,

no one ever explains,

they explain menopause as you just can't

give birth no more,

it's a little bit deeper than that.

Like it's a little bit more deeper than that, right? '

Cause it's literally the body's

inability to make proper or appropriate

levels of estrogen. So you have both estrogen

and progesterone going down at the same time.

And because it goes down at the same time,

hot flashes, irritability,

insulin resistance, you know, all the things.

So I talk about that in the book.

I even talk about our men.

For so long our men have been

quiet for all the reasons, and it's [00:23:00] like,

I need y'all to stop being quiet because

some of y'all stuff is messing up my stuff, right?

Because if a man's pH of his fluids

is too acidic or too alkaline, and then your stuff

is a certain level of alkaline or acidic,

and it comes together.

Now we have, a pH imbalance and

we most likely will have some

type of bacterial vaginosis.

I talk about that in the book and

I also talk about food.

You know, we can't do any of this

without talking about food.

Right. You know, 'cause I love it.

I love, you know, the, the funniest thing is

talking with somebody that has a

very strong cultural food association.

And then tell 'em they can't eat that no more.

That's such a fun conversation.

I love my Caribbean.

People I love y'all.

But y'all have some of the worst food

combinations out there, so with that being said,

who is Herbal Harmony Relief for?

Is it for the woman who has problems to solve?

Is it for someone who's having [00:24:00] issues,

who should be reading this book?

You mean other than everybody?

That's right. Okay.

The book honestly is for anybody

who thought they were crazy

and needed someone to

let them know that, no, you're not crazy.

That little thing that you

feel every month right there.

That is common. It is not normal.

Mm-hmm.

One of the things that

allopathic medicine like to tell us.

And when I say us, I'm talking very

specifically about women,

is that everything we go through

is a variation of normal. No, it's not.

It is common. Mm-hmm.

But it is absolutely abnormal to

bleed for seven to 12 days.

It is absolutely abnormal to have,

like you, you have beautiful skin.

If your mes came on,

you got a big old cystic zit right here.

It's like, why, you know, receding hairlines

after you give birth, like the

postpartum hair loss and stuff.

It's common, but it's not normal.

It's not [00:25:00] normal, for anybody who's

ever had that suspicion that something

was off, but they couldn't

pinpoint what was off.

And when they tried to go to the

provider, they got.

Devalued, or even, just not heard.

And that could be both male or female.

For my mothers.

It's so that we can start having these

conversations with our babies, you know?

That's right.

Yeah. I kid you not,

I learned about all this by watching HBO

Mm-hmm. So right.

We have generations of not

having these kind of conversations.

We need to have these conversations.

You need to know the women in your family.

What age were they when they naturally

went into menopause?

So that you can get yourself ready

and start paying attention,

because menopause is also one

of the things that doesn't start on a Monday.

It started five years ago on a [00:26:00] Monday.

If you in your mind already know that,

hey, this side of my family

typically goes into menopause.

Let me start work, making sure

I'm having, you know, all the things I need,

make sure I'm eating right, make sure

I'm having the right amount of rest,

and, downtime and whatnot.

So it's so literally.

Anybody who's ever had to question

what was going on with their body

and needed it explained in a very simple format.

That sounds weird.

Well, with that,

I say thank you for creating a space

and a resource for those of us who have questions.

Those of us who have a responsibility

to teach others, those of us hormones,

which again, mm-hmm.

Is everybody.

Is everybody.

Thank you for the wisdom that you have

provided for those whose hope to be able

to spread that wisdom and

obtain it for themselves as well.

Thank you so much.

With that being said, once again,

you all, we have

Ms. Zaire Sapp here.

You can find her book, the

Herbal [00:27:00] Harmony at Amazon,

and our last words that you would

like to share with the audience regarding your book.

Yes, so it is on Amazon.

You can download it with Kindle

and it's also available on my website,

www.mysticmamaherbals.com.

And just understand the book is really set up.

So that you can have a conversation

with your provider.

I don't want you to think your provider

woke up in the morning and decided to

just be a douche bag,

that's not how any of them live their lives.

It may feel like it, but that's not how

they actually live their lives.

Their challenges with allopathic medicine,

from state laws, federal laws, insurance,

and all the kind of things.

When they're held hostage to all of that stuff,

they actually lose the ability to sit and

hold space for their clients because

they only got 15, 20 minutes at best.

So one, don't hold it against them.

Two, use the book to educate yourself

[00:28:00] because literally you are your own,

you are your best doctor.

You know that at every day,

at two o'clock in the morning, you wake up.

There's a reason why you're waking

up at two o'clock in the morning every day.

And it could be either spiritual or

it could be physical, or it could be combination of both.

So the book is set up to be that resource

so that you can have the conversations.

And so that you can put the pieces together

for your own sanity, safety, and sovereignty.

Okay. I appreciate that.

I kind of laughed to myself,

you know, as a person who do realize the power

of herbal and natural medicine,

but also marrying it with, allopathic medicine,

utilizing your doctors for the

expertise and resources they have.

Mm-hmm.

But also with the background

and, you know, midwifery.

Talk with the client for 30 minutes.

An hour or more and I get to appointments and

you know, they say, oh, so what's going on?

You give them an introduction, right.

You give them name. Mm-hmm.

They're like, okay, check walking out.

Oh, I thought we was just getting started.

Mm-hmm.

That being said,

coming in information armed and ready

to go [00:29:00] with a level standing really

can just set you so far ahead of the

game with have in that conversation

with your provider. So, exactly.

So, and then, and then also too,

real quick, so you know,

you're a birth worker too, so this actually will help you too.

So, do you do preconception?

Yes, ma'am. Work.

So this right here is right up your alley.

Mm-hmm. So when you,

so when you're talking with your clients

and preconception and you're like, look.

I need you to get off the fast food regimen.

Okay? And these are all the reasons why, right?

I need you to not do the fast food regimen.

I need you and your mate, your partner,

whatever you wanna call them,

to come together and actually do stuff together.

'Cause that's the other part that happens,

especially in the,

reproduction space. It's always us.

They act like the men and don't have

nothing wrong with them. No baby Uhuh.

No, no, no, no, no.

It took two, not just one.

It took two. So if I'm gonna do [00:30:00] a

21 day detox, sir, you are two ma'am.

You are two. Okay? Mm-hmm.

And this is the reason why you do these as a couple.

Okay? I do a lot of work with,

IVF and IUI clients. Mm-hmm.

Oh, bless their heart.

I gotta take them so far off the ledge because,

you know, they get into that,

schedule exactly at this time and do this.

I'm like, stop y'all. See, stop.

Throw the schedule out.

Go have a vacation.

Go get drunk and have wild,

crazy sex like y'all did when y'all first met.

Okay? All 'cause I kid you not the amount

of stress and cortisol that you're releasing,

trying to make sure you adhere

to the timeframes that the

specialist told you to do.

You won't get pregnant that way because

who wants to have sex based on his schedule?

That's not, that takes, no.

If you relax.

And just remember why [00:31:00] you enjoyed

it to begin with. It goes so much better.

Everything takes so much better, you know?

So yeah, finding a way to release control

to a certain extent is definitely, exactly.

Of faith.

And like I said, cortisol control is the, yep.

Support elements of that journey

For sure. It's big time.

And then with our brothers, they don't get it.

Like they don't get the cortisol situation.

I'm like, y'all do understand the reason

why you have a bigger bra size than

I do is because of your cortisol,

because of the amount of stress

you're constantly taking in and not releasing.

Mm-hmm.

All your mother wounds mm-hmm.

That you didn't work through.

Like that's why you have a midsection.

That has to be expanded every so often.

We as a community have a lot of healing to do,

a lot of relearning to do, and once,

A wonderful book out there in the

world for us to start that journey [00:32:00] Herbal Harmony

by Ms. Zaire Sabb.

Once again,

thank you for your time here today,

and thank you to our listeners as well.

We always appreciate you all tuning in

and for that we would like to thank

you with a 15% off for all the CEU courses

on Midwifery Wisdom

you just simply use the code MWCPOD15

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you so much.

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