Shafia Monroe - Podcast Interview
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Welcome back to the

Midwifery Wisdom podcast.

I'm your host Augustine, and I

am joined by a co-host today. Israel is here.

Israel. Hi. Will you say hi and give a little introduction.

Where are you? Who are you and

what are you all about? Hey, my name is Israel Johnson.

I am a licensed direct entry midwife

and certified professional midwife. I live in Oregon

and I'm here to support

the Midwifery Wisdom Collective as

well as Shafia Monroe and her new book.

Fantastic. Why don't you go ahead

and introduce our lovely guest. All [00:02:00] right. All right. I would love to. Today we have

Mama Shafia, AKA Shafia Monroe. She is a renowned, midwife,

author, and cultural historian. She was the founder also of the

SMC Full Circle Doula training. She's launched the first black doula training

nationally in 2002 in Portland, Oregon,

and has since trained over 5,000 doulas.

She has now just published a book called

Mothering the Mother, Postpartum Traditional

Recipes and Healing. She released this book

on January 27th,

and we're gonna get to talk to her a little

bit today about her journey

and her book.

Welcome. Thank you. Welcome back, mama Shafi.

It's so great to have you in the podcast

again, and I can't imagine that everyone

doesn't know who you are. But just in case, we are just so honored

to have you here and you have been

doing such tremendous advocacy

education work for so many years. You are an institution in

midwifery and doula [00:03:00] work.

I just got back this

morning from the National Black Midwives

Alliance fourth conference, and that came

outta my original work, the

International Center for Traditional Childbearing.

So that was amazing. We did the pinning of midwives, about

300 midwives across the nation. So that's important and that was great. The pictures in your

Instagram were so beautiful. And what a gathering. Yes. So many beautiful midwives. Thank you.

Thank you. What's your biggest takeaway

from that time together? I'm gonna say love, and I'm going to say

inspired by how appreciative the students

were to have elder midwives around

them to encourage them to continue

the journey, which can be so difficult. As y'all may know, just in its format,

the way that we model midwifery

is from a patriarchal system.

It's not from a maternal system. And so it's difficult. They needed the encouragement and

to see their smiles was very [00:04:00] rewarding. I can, I know the struggle of student

midwifery and I'm so glad that

this organization born from the

roots that you birthed so many

years ago exists to support them.

Specifically, we know that we need so many

more black and brown and indigenous

midwives in the United States, and your

work is so instrumental in supporting

that community, and I so excited to hear

that it exists and that you're doing this. It's amazing. It is wonderful.

And just really, the

World Health Organization itself said

that we need 1 million midwives of all.

Representation. Definitely. We're just short midwives. It's just really,

we are short midwives

for sure, but in the US like two to 5%

are only identifying as non-white. So it's like crucial in the US So it's so exciting. I just wanna honor, your

work so tremendously. Thank you. Thank you.

And I think that's a great segue into the book. Israel was showing me she has

a signed copy from you, [00:05:00] and I just, I wanna hear all about this.

Tell us about the birthing of this creation.

The book definitely, I tell people right

now, I'm still in my bonding stage. The book.

I've used it as a maternal, as being a mom.

Because I had a, preconception, I got

the idea, then I had to get

pregnant, and carry the

idea and get it to grow. Then I went to labor.

I had to write it. And that labor took about, at least

two and a half years of to write it. And then of course the birthing.

And once the book got done, to be honest,

I was not even excited till have gotten

launched, even though they said it was done.

The publisher did all kind of good ideas. It is done,

but not until it really I'll be

honest, the day that I had the actual

book signing on January 20, I think

it was January, was it January 31st?

Israel was the actual book signing, I think the 27th.

January 27th. Thank you. Okay. The 27th was the day, and that's when

I felt like the book was really real.

But the book is such a big deal, you all,

besides the fact the cover is so gorgeous

and it really represents what it [00:06:00] means for

African American healing to see this beautiful

woman with this beautiful ball gown on and

this beautiful hat crown being surrounded by

people with someone holding the cast iron

pot with the collard greens and the pot liquor

for the iron, and someone holding the fruit

and the woman holding water for libation.

You know how water is so important that

African American community for many

spiritual reasons and just I don't know if

that's, I don't know if that's her father or

husband, her partner, but someone has this

shoulder and she's breastfeeding and they're

all faceless, but they're all black representing,

African Americans across the diaspora.

And even the artist, it's pink

because, peach is a big color in Georgia,

just the color itself represents itself. So excited about the cover,

love the cover, and the book came because

I had been teaching, as you said, doing this

work for over 40 years and in the last, I guess

10 years, really focusing a lot on postpartum

care from an African American perspective. And people are like, oh, mama Shafi.

Like, where's this information? Besides taking my course,

how, [00:07:00] where's the PowerPoint? Like a PowerPoint. This needs so much more. So I wanted to write a book. However, at the same time I keep a diary or

journals and I was, and I keep, I'm reading

it and it said 2015, I wanna write a book.

Wow, I put that book, 11 years ago. What a full circle moment. Yes. Congratulations. It is like a birth itself. You created something and

now it walks in the world. It does. I know Israel, you've gotten

a chance to peruse it. What's your favorite part? Ooh, the whole book, girl. Oh it's absolutely amazing.

The book, it's not just. A reflection of our traditional history

and giving people, the tools they need

to learn about how to create that sacred

space for themselves postpartum. It's also includes the traditional food

and the healing and the laying in and

the belly binding and the bone closing.

There's just, it's like a [00:08:00] full circle. I feel like the book embodies a

full circle, like her doula program. Because it's just one of those things

where like people will be able to read

this book and find the information

that they need and that they can

clinging to and see where the tradition

started and where we really went lost.

I think that was something that when Shafia,

you mentioned when you wrote the book

that you kept having people coming to you

like, man, we need this in a PowerPoint. We need this tangible. I think that was also a

moment for you to realize. Which we all do, how important it is that

these mothers have this information and

where they're getting it from, and that there

isn't enough knowledge being shared on it.

So this book gives everyone a tangible,

we can physically hold this and share

it with our mothers, our community. I think that's what's so beautiful

about, it's just, it's for everyone. It's for every postpartum mother. Absolutely. Thank you. You're welcome. So beautiful. [00:09:00] So Sophia, it's hard to pick out the parts

you might love the most, but maybe to

really move you the most or what

are you so excited that you're

able to share in this medium now?

Any specific examples? I think, I love the love letter to black

women, to black mothers in front. I think that black mother, as I

said in the book historically, has

been traumatized in this country. We were never allowed to

even be mothers, our children. Taken, it says one line that I really like, where

our children were sold off our breasts.

That's so powerful statement. Imagine someone's breastfeeding

their little baby and someone

has the right to take it from you. And that is what happened. So I think, the trauma of just us being

able to care for each other, not being

forced to go back to the cotton field,

15 hours after birth, not being that

tender care that we gave each other.

So I feel like the history to understand what

we have endured, I think people forget. I think even the African community

forgets what we went through historically

and how that impacts us today. Besides the fact of the, [00:10:00] Sheppard-Towner Act eradicating midwifery, the

black midwives were the ones left

eradicating that, and we lost all that.

But even pre that, just

how hard it was to mother. And now we have the chance to love

each other and go back to our natural

inclination of being able to rest and being

served and being rubbed and being talked

nicely to, and, having that baby stay near

us and going back to things that we knew

were part of our culture pre enslavement.

And so I like that undertone. The book. I love the fact that I talk

about the food for anemia. I think that anemia is not a discussion

that's really taken seriously enough. And unfortunately because of

fibroids and other things that

happen for, African American women,

there tends to be a higher rate.

Of being anemic and us not

understanding the long-term impact. And just when I did the

book, I learned so much. I forgot about, the depression

that comes from anemia. Wow if we're anemic, maybe

it's not postpartum depression,

maybe it's just, being anemic. And we, if people take enough

iron, they may not [00:11:00] be, we may not

see the amount of depression.

America is anemic because just, we're

not really conscious eaters anymore. We're just eating. So I think that part was fun. And of course, I love the coconut cake. So here's the thing. I went to California to do a book signing, and

they hired a chef who made the peanut stew

as a sample for over a hundred attendees.

And she made the coconut cake

and she made the dandelion tea. So I'm drinking the tea oh

my God, this tea's great. What is this? Like that's your tea out of the book. I was so proud. Aw. Oh my God, this tea's delicious. So the food is good. The food is so good. And my husband and I have been really sick.

We made the coconut. Shrimp soup and we didn't, postpartum,

so we're making the soup 'cause we're sick. And we drank it a couple of weeks

ago and it really made a difference. I think it's that cayenne, those two teaspoons

of cayenne really racked this cold out. So I love the fact that people can

find traditional foods that our

grandmothers used to make or our

great-grandmothers used to make.

And you can remember, let's make us be

hydrated again and bring back nutrition. [00:12:00] And I just want, mothers, pregnant people,

new people to really be celebrated because

I, being a mom is such a big deal and we

just don't honor it in this country at all. It's just oh, you had a baby. Oh yeah.

Okay great. And after the next conversation. So I love the fact that moms have the right to

be honored because we used to honor them. It was a time that you got to

be taken care and loved over. May I read a section out of

the book for this moment? It's perfect.

Yes, please. Page 1 42 nourish your body and soul. Shafia says, be mindful of what you

consume and where it comes from. Food receives its strength to sustain

life from minerals and the soil and the

sun's ray, which allow the plants

to hold energy at the molecular level and

create chlorophyll, which brings health

to the human body, including iron food,

sprouts from the womb of Mother Earth.

It is her medicine to the world. Our job is to honor and protect

our health by respecting food and

being [00:13:00] intentional about what we eat. So it is embodying, I think,

like you said, the traditional. History of African American food and

especially in America, how we can replicate

that and how we can postpartum get

our moms to eat those warming healing.

Like you said, the herbs that sometimes

go in them eat too are what is

healing the body from the inside out. It's beautiful. Beautiful. Thank you. You read it well. Sounded a beautiful wow, I wrote that. Oh yeah, you wrote that girl. Oh, yep. It's beautiful. Was Sophia, one of my favorite definitions

of a midwife is most simply a change agent.

You embody that so tremendously. Could I ask you for people that might

not know all the things that you've

done and all that you are, what are you

working on changing right now and

what are you really proud of having

[00:14:00] seen change in your 40 year career? Let's see, what am I working on changing?

I think I'll go back first

with what am I proud of? Yeah. I am proud that I am a God conscious

woman, human being, and I'm proud

that I was able to recognize my calling

to be a change agent at a young age. That through my parents as my books and

my parents taught me that when things

don't look right, don't complain, try to fix it.

And that when I saw that, there

were no black midwives in

Boston, Massachusetts, and that. Black midwives not being elevated. Though I knew there were black midwives

long before I was born, we didn't see them. And I think my work has been, because

there were a lot of black midwives, I don't

wanna take credit, were many black

midwives organizing in the country in the

seventies, but because I created a nonprofit.

I went into the assistant and legalized our organization,

put us on the map 'cause

people could find us. And I was able to really uplift

black midwives across the nation. And when I go to the [00:15:00] meeting last night,

when I hear we have our first black

a c and m president in 2020, I feel proud that I

know the work that I did collectively with

my peers made that happen because we

addressed every midwifery entity, whether

it was MANA or ACNM.

We were at every table, often

uninvited to say that what's happening 40

years ago was not acceptable. And this how long it takes change that finally. 2020 is the first black president,

now there's a LatinaX president

and slowly there's been a shift.

So I'm really proud that there's been a consistent

system that we have done. And the fact that we have a

National Black Mothers Alliance, A five, oh,

I wanna say it right, 5136, a membership

organization shows that the plant that was

planted, some years ago, it never went away.

It was under the ground,

being watered consistently. And now it's sprouted.

Now, African American midwives or black

midwives have an entity they can look

at, where they can feel comfortable,

where [00:16:00] they're at the center and the

stress is down when they come together.

And so I'm very proud of that.

Beautiful. And then what are you working

on changing now, either in a very

local way or in a systemic way?

What is your focus now?

I would say that I'm still working on us understanding. The book just came out less than two

months ago, so almost three months. So I'm really still working on just people

knowing that African American postpartum

care exists and how they can reenact

into their lives into their family's lives.

Because we know we have the

high maternal mortality rate,

which really is not about the book. The high maternal mortality rate for

black women is really about systemic

racism and the healthcare system. But I think the book will

allow us to just value ourselves.. And so I wanna work on just,

moving this forward so that every

young person has this book.

We're learning late. [00:17:00] This, but just imagine if you knew

this, if you knew this at 16 or 12. So once you get,

when you get pregnant,

it's not a conversation. You already know that you're

gonna have these things done. Your families already know

how to take care of you. We have grandmothers telling 'em, emailing

me, saying, my daughter's pregnant.

I wanna know what to do because we lost that. They don't know how to help their

own daughter, or, the partner. I don't how to, I don't help my loved

ones, so I just want to, i'm working on still

changing how maternal mortality looks. So right now we're talking about it

and it's very clinical, we're glad that

Medicaid has allowed more visits,

but more visits is not postpartum care.

It's clinical. You have a new mother coming in. Day eight to check jaundice

or to check incision. We're saying stay home. We're saying lie in.. She has to get in and go out, sit in the

hard chair, not be given any

food, not help them out of her car. So even though we're doing

that's really not postpartum care.

Okay we

got more visits happening, but we're

not going to people's homes to provide that care like we should be. So I'm working on that still, and

I'm working [00:18:00] on

getting rid of the word patient for pregnant people. We are not sick. Yeah. So I'm with the nurse midwives, they're

same patient and the other midwives

saying client, I'm saying family.

So getting getting common language

and getting rid of the word patient. So yeah. And getting rid of the word

BIPOC, that words drive me crazy. Tell, will you tell us why. I think for African Americans, we

worked so hard for identity, we came. But we came from tribes.

We had names. America took our names,

they took our language. Then we were just, the N word. And then we became color, then we

were negro, then we became black,

then we became African American. But we're the only group that

always has to keep re-identifying. So now when people say BIPOC,

they think of black people.

But it's supposed to be, they're not

thinking about indigenous 'cause. Indigenous don't. They don't. They don't call themselves BIPOC. I've been looking through literature. It's coming back to another word,

another subtle word that means black. Just like women of color. Women of color is not black. Black is black.

Women of the color means every color. And once again, I feel like we're

being lost [00:19:00] in the sauce and that. That bothers me. I feel like we need to have a

strong identity and not just being

renamed and reading books. Oh yeah. We have a BIPOC leader. What is a BIPOC leader? Is that Indian? Is that, biracial?

Is that black? We don't know. And so we're losing our identity with

that word, and that's not okay for me. I so hear you. It feels like another subtle way of othering. Yeah. Really, it's just saying not white, which

is not at all an identity, but it's also, but

it's also saying, it's also, I feel, I'm gonna

ask Elizabeth, both of you, when you

think of BIPOC, like what comes to mind?

A black person, an indigenous person

people of color, what comes to your

mind when you hear the word BIPOC. Yeah. I would say it is very identified with

replacing black culture now in my mind. And and that's not what

it was intended to do. And it exactly, it actually can make

people feel like they're erased again.

It sounds like. That's, yeah, I terrible that. Yeah. Yeah. Why did it have an unusual label? Why it to be a BIPOC? [00:20:00] Why can't this be a black woman? Or African American woman. Navajo, they common themselves. Navajo, and Mexican call themselves

Mexican and people who are Viking or just

say I'm European America, white American.

Why did it always have a title that makes

us not be a person, like a thing? What is a BIPOC leader? I have no idea what that is I have what

a black leader is, but not a BIPOC. So that's my, that's what I'm working on. I feel that the terminology that I think

we hear words that somehow post to

mean and wind up being used against us.

And so in 15 years from now, we'll see a

BIPOC, which is like a horrible name to

me as a black woman or a black man or a

black person, and not as, just as a person. It's another thing, it's another title. It's not really a human visualization for me. Yeah. Yeah. I agree. I think it very, feels very much so like

a, like an umbrella and like a statement

and it just feels like you're right.

They're taking away individual identity by

throwing all these identities in one name. Yeah. Yeah. Don't be [00:21:00] so lazy. That's why don't be so lazy. No, just say I work with the Latin woman.. I work with the indigenous one. I working with the black one. I working with the white woman. Yeah.

As Erykah says, get rid of the words. Because first of as we know there's only one. It is a human race. Yeah. We could not intermarry if

we were different species. A dog and a cat cannot make a child. So we are the same. And that we have to understand that

this whole thing of a race did not

come from African descent people.

It came from European people as a

structural way to keep power and by,

consistently making up new terms. We just buy into it. We have to get to the point where

I have a human being at the table. What a nice concept. Yeah. Yeah. Beautiful. Yeah. Thank you so much for

being such a truth teller.

I, I feel like every conversation I have

with you is just like the clouds part,

and there is just clarity and truth,

and you're such a light bringer. It's the way that you say

things, it's just so obvious. And I hope that people

listening feel so inspired by you. It's so inspiring. [00:22:00] You do so many things.

Just reading your bio is

like a trip and amazing journey. Mother of seven.

You've started organizations and

nonprofits have a master's in public health.

You have so many loves. My friend Penelope from Hawaii

loves come and garden with you. I know that you have a tremendous

garden there on your property.

Thank God she's on her way. I can't wait for her

to get, I need her help. I've been so blessed by her. It's so kind. She's an amazing she just

appeared on Instagram. Can I come help you? Who is this lady? Yes, you can help me. I love that. She's so amazing speaking out. I hope you get to meet her.

Yeah. Yes. I love that. I would love to. I will come help in the garden anytime. And that actually brings me into my

question I had for you too was speaking

of herbs and the traditional medicine in

your book, if there was two herbs that you

would tell all mothers that they should

have on hand, what would they be?

Mint and catnip. Ooh, [00:23:00] beautiful. Ooh. She knows right away. Tell us. Yeah, tell us more. Why? I think, having a baby puts the

body at a really heightened state

because you just, you're very excited. I wanna say again, too,

for black mothers,

we're constantly subconsciously hyper

vigilant because this, the, what we're

hearing in the atmosphere, I'm unfortunately

about what happens to our children.

And so the mint keeps the mother

her stomach calm for good digestion,

and the catnip is the nerve being that

keeps her just relaxed and settled. Yeah.

So those are two important. It's important that new

mothers are settled and quiet. The granny midwife would keep the

room like a very low light in the room

so it wouldn't be too bright so she could

rest and they would somewhat even

And the goal was just to be with the baby

and create that womb like environment,

they kept the room warm and

they kept it dark and they kept it quiet

was a sense of, she needs to be remain calm

so that catnip tea was good for the baby.

But also good for the mama. I love that

for the midwives listening. I've used that before [00:24:00] for myself when

I'm laying down on my body so tired,

but my brain is just spinning, right? Because it's such that

nervine quality is so calming. I love that.

Thanks for sharing that with us. Yeah.

Herbal medicine, we just have a new herbal

medicine course that actually just launched,

and it is such a rich and deep topic. Like probably we could all just share

tips and tricks forever because it's such a, it's such

a lived experience, right? It lives in your body and then we

pass it on and I just, I'm just so

enamored with you having passed on

all of this wisdom in a book format.

I'm so excited that this exists in the world.

What has been the feedback? Have you gotten to hear some

people like Israel talk about being

exposed to this body of knowledge? The feedback has been beautiful,

emotional, and I'm so grateful to the

creator that I was able to do this. I did it out of love.

Absolutely. My, the book says, [00:25:00] I dedicate the book

to my mother who read me bedtime

stories, who taught me the love to

Reba also taught me the important

things need to be put in a book.

And this was something important. And I wanted something to be

here when I'm no longer here in the

physical form that people can find

out what would Mama Shafi say?

What did Mama Shafia do? What did our culture do?

And so now, like you said it's in

a format and the people have

been saying like, oh, mama Shafi. Oh my God,

I feel seen for the first time. This book has changed my life.

This book is a life changer. The words have been unbelievable.

Unbelievable. All amazing. I'm so happy that inspiring people. Inspiring. Yeah. That everyone has, that, all that

have given feedback have all

been a hundred percent positive. Just emotional words. That is what they needed. They're saying like, thank you. Someone, I have a couple lies that

people actually talking on Instagram,

thanking how the book made them

feel like they're crying when they

read the love letter to black mothers.

That they brought tears to their eyes. [00:26:00] Yeah, so it's been great feedback. It's so needed. We didn't have a book you all,

we had Ayurvedic medicine. That's great. We had Chinese medicine,

we had Mediterranean diet. Yeah. We had Celtic salt. Anything but nothing about African American healing. Like we've been invisible yet

we built this country. We breastfed this country. Yeah. We garden this country, we provided

postpartum care to white women

in the big house who want us over

a white doctor 'cause the, because

of the kind care that we get. But yet it's nowhere documented. Like we didn't do anything. And I'm like, I can't go out like that.

I have to make sure that my people know

that we have a power to be proud of that. We have been helping each other

for generations and others as well. So the book was so important for me. Not just about so much of the legacy, but also

to give black women a face in this world

of midwifery and postpartum care.

'cause it, we have not been really

mentioned anywhere, with all the

things going other than dying. That's all they talk about, but not our thriving

and how we take care of each other and

how we showed up for each [00:27:00] other and

how we make sure that mama rested.. She didn't bleed to death. She didn't have, the midwives would walk

out the house, doing the postpartum care

They would trim back and

say, stars, for hypertension, you know that

they would see stars and they would say no. They would know. They knew what, that, it was dangerous. At that time, in the 1920s and people

are having, 10 to 14, 17 children often

back to back with that boggy uterus,

they knew to wrap the stomach.

They knew you had to lay still,

they knew that what was at risk. So that care was highly in tuned of

what happened physiologically, but also what's happening spiritually. Your body's left, your body left the other side to give birth. We gotta bring you back and it takes time. And so those 42 days, now we know why was the 42 days?

We didn't know the cervix closed 10 days back then. Maybe they knew that you just took six weeks. So I talk a lot about the postpartum care also being a physical time and focusing on the first 42 days. So though we know that postpartum care should go for at least a year, depending on what, part of your ancestry.

Some do three months out [00:28:00] of Africa, some did a year. But in America we focused a lot intentionally. The intense part was the first 42 days where you had to lay down and me still and take these soups and we now know. That this is a higher time of postpartum mortality. High in pregnancy, first day of delivery is high, zero to seven, then seven to 42.

And so be careful that whole zero to 42 in this book. And making sure that because you have a good, if you have a good foundation, you're loved, you're rested, you're fed, the rest of your postpartum care should be okay. But if you are up on day five and working and dehydrated, we can't expect you to feel good at three months, six months, nine months, 12 months.

So I feel like this is like the nucleus of we're gonna we build here and expect a continuously good outcome thereafter.

Brilliant. It was exciting to see the foreword in your book written by Erykah Badu Oh my God. Who's also one of your students. So tell us about that amazing [00:29:00] connection. Had a conference years ago, I can't remember what year it was. I've always wanted Erykah Badu to be I speaker because she had a home birth and I, a home birth midwife.

I wanted her to come speak. So someone introduced me to her and she came and spoke and then she, we got to know each other and we, she was already being bad doula, so we gave her some other information under the SMC full circle doula training and Emmanuel. And we had a mother come in to one of our conferences with some midwives who helped her do palpation and do fetal heart rate with the fetal scope.

And I sent her a purple fetal scope for part of her her midwifery interest. So yeah, she took our training and she said

she would write the forward

and she did. Wow. And we did a live on Instagram.

Not yeah, Instagram a couple weeks ago.

So you might see us here speaking. Yeah, I did see it.

And she wrote, it's a sisterhood, it's a childbirth,

it's a ceremony, it's a spiritual walk. I had some very

talented and patient mentors,

one being Shafia Monroe, and it's just so inspiring.

Like [00:30:00] it must be so amazing to pass it on,

and then to see her passing it on and just see

this lineage coming out, yeah, it's beautiful.

I also was watching the live you guys had,

and something that I love that she said and mentioned

about the book was that Erykah called it the postpartum Bible. Yes. And I was like, absolutely. It's absolutely, I think it, it really

helps paint a picture of what postpartum

is truly supposed to look like.

It shows what thriving families should look like.

So it's beautiful to have Erykah Badu too,

to support you and your book. That's a much honor.

I wanna say too, she also mentioned, I believe

that this book is for the mother and the baby,

and I think in this country, I'm hearing a lot about

some type of rival between the baby and the mom.

So weird. It was just focusing on the baby.

No one's focusing on the mother, it's gonna focus on the mom.

But the book talks about, in our culture, they're a unit,

they're a dyad. You focus on both. It's not one or the other.

They both are connected. They both make each other healthy.

Mom, baby gives mother oxytocin [00:31:00] and mama

gives baby want and life, and you don't separate them.

So it's not one or the other. So it's very much I try to not

try to edit that in the book a lot. And I love what

Toni Morrison, the famous author says, it's not a competition.

You can do both. You can have a career and still be a mother.

It's not one or the other. So I really try to put that in the book for women

to understand that you can have a baby

and have a full life. It just doesn't take away,

and if I come hold your baby,

you're not being a bad mom. We expect someone

to hold a baby that you can sleep.

And that's also in the book of how the friend

will hold the baby while the mother sleep well.

You don't have that. The baby tie it on you 24 7

when not a kangaroo, we're it stuck to you?

We have arms of someone else that we trust.

She'd hold a baby. That's part of the culture to give mom

a break and she's a good mother by allowing that.

Gosh. Yeah, we should just say that again for

the people in the back this is so important, this

treating it like there's some inherent competition

between the stages of your life or even the mother

and the baby is actually so [00:32:00] patriarchal. Like it's missing the truth here.

Yeah. We are multitasking goddesses, right?

Like women came, do it all. Exactly.

We wouldn't have shown if we weren't

capable to multitask, we wouldn't be able to, nature

makes you do what you're capable of doing.

So we would not be birthing

if we were not capable of doing that.

And still doing something else,

but I don't know where the piece came from, where people say, I'm just gonna dual the mother and neglect the baby.

Yeah. Where, who talks about that? Yeah. I don't get it.

But anyways, or vice versa. Yeah.

We just think that the mother is the container

to deliver the baby, it's so madness. Yeah. What were you gonna say, Israel? I was gonna say, I remember it's been a few years, we had

a conference that you hosted, and that was

something that really stuck with me.

It was like a, you made like a, an example, like a chart. It was like a paradigm

and it had mom, newborn and midwife. Yeah, midwife. The triads. Yes, the triads. And how when we're called to this work,

some of us are more in it for the mom.

Some of them are more in it for the babies.

And I [00:33:00] love that Shafi has made that book that says,

no, this is mom and babies. The whole time we're pregnant,

we talk about how they are a, it's like a dance, they're in this together,

this they're, it has to be the two of them. And so to be able to balance that in this book and to be able to, clearly write

out how important it is to have the support

from your people in your village and

your support system, but also.

Still focusing on the needs of the baby. I see that a lot myself as a midwife today.

I see a lot of families that come over and they

say the same thing. They'll say, I just wanna hold the baby.

I just wanna hold the baby. And sometimes I'm a little bit more like you're, I'm more like kangaroo mom.

I'm like, put that baby on your skin. Because though

we see those moms, it's mostly because they're up out of that bed, they're getting outta the house, they're not lying in. And sometimes that's

a little trick to get them to lie in is, wrap that baby on you.

And then when you have the people come over, give

them a job and a chore to do, whether that's cooking, cleaning, helping you

with the dishes or doing [00:34:00] errands.

And then of course, yeah, when mom is overwhelmed

or she needs to take a shower or go to the bathroom, absolutely.

Have someone there that you trust and that

baby can feel comfortable with too. And that can be helped by them because,

I also have seven children, so people ask us all the time, how do you do it?

What do you know? And it literally takes us as a whole.

You just fill in the gaps from what

everybody can do individually. People always ask how, what,

how do other kids not get jealous? It's about including everyone as a whole. I tell the other little kids, I'll sit on the couch and they can sit

and hold baby with me, or they love being helpful,

getting diapers and wipes or

bag throwed away in those kids.

They want to be involved and the more that we like,

push them away from that or make them think

that they're being too rough with those babies is

what I think causes that like, jealousy. So it is, it's a very

very big balance that you have to create. It's very gentle too, to be able

to teach folks that mom and baby are still a [00:35:00] unit.

They're still a family unit postpartum. Thanks for sharing that. Yeah. So beautiful. I'd love to shift gears for a second and ask you both a question.

I have been out of the US for a decade now. I'm still deeply concerned with the state of midwifery and the state of maternity care, but I'm much less in touch.

So I know that Israel, you've lived on opposite

sides of the country. Shafi, you've been in many

different places in the country, and you represent, you bookend our generations of midwifery, Israel, being a new midwife and shafia

with your incredible wisdom and years of experience. And I would just love to have

both of you reflect on what's happening across the country

what you're really excited about for the profession

and what you're really worried about from your two different experiences.

Sure. Mama Sophia, you can go first if you'd [00:36:00] like. I would say what I'm excited

about is that I'm seeing CPMs, traditional midwives and

certified nurse midwives working to communicate,

to create one midwifery and one thing about

the International Center for traditional childbearing,

our conference was always called

Black Midwives and Healers.

And what we were known for is that every

educational track to midwifery was

always welcome into our circle. We didn't say only nurse midwives,

only, CPMs only outline. We said that midwives and midwives,

how they get there are different educational tracks.

And so of course there's been a lot of

historical trauma to the traditional midwives,

AKA granny midwife, or even, indigenous midwives

where they are no longer at the table.

And so now they're slowly real, real slow.

Coming back someplace, the conversation. So we have

a lot of bills in the nation that where the

CPMs is not passing. 'cause some of them refuse

to go forward without bringing their

traditional [00:37:00] midwives with them. And I'm hearing more c

them saying that we need traditional midwives

because we don't even

know how to do a breech

or external aversion.

They still hold some of the things that

we were not allowed to do if we lose them.

Then we're gonna find and lose what little

bit we have left a really normal full scope midwifery.

So I'm excited about that. But I'm still concerned

that the country itself, people still don't

know what midwives are, that there's so many

midwifery practices. I talk about the CNMs

the big institute, they're closing down their nurse midwife

midwifery departments that people cannot get midwives.

That there's so many states where CPMs are

still not legal and not getting good pay. And again,

that it's the elite group that you think of OB

and everybody knows what that is.

But you think of midwife people still saying to me,

I'm in Hampton at the conference, I'm getting a

ride from this young African American guy who's

getting his master's. And I said, we're midwives.

He's what is that? Like a pediatrician?

So it took me a minute. They try [00:38:00] to explain to what we were,

and so the fact that we'll still having

these conversations is a concern when.

Women are dying. And when I do my SMC doula training,

I think one thing that I'm very proud of

that our training is built on the legacy of the

black midwife of the 20th century midwife,

which means that all of my doulas have to know

what ministry scope of practice is. And they have to also,

not so much a promise, but they're taught

that have all your clients, if they can switch to a midwife

at any point in their pregnancy, any midwife,

if they're in a hospital, tell them, I want the midwife

department tell them, I wanna find a home birth midwife.

I want a traditional midwife. Because even the doulas

don't know what midwives do. They only know doctors.

And so the doulas is a growing profession.

So make sure that they know what midwives are

they're our allies. They're the ones that could

tell their clients that, oh, you should get a midwife

and here's why.

And I give them statistics. It's a better outcome,

less prematurity, less low birth weight baby,

better breastfeeding, less postpartum

[00:39:00] hemorrhaging believe it. So they don't know that either.

And so I think the fact that

the education

is still at a two is just very concerning. Yeah.

Yeah. So that's due to the patriarchal system.

I told people who runs OB are the same

people who ran it in Europe,

who demise the women in Europe.

They brought that same thing.

They're doing it, it may not be

burning physically, but they're deaf

and burning on the political policy level,

which is why we are still

having this conversation.

I'll leave it there.

Yeah, I think that's huge. Absolutely.

And even going off of like for the things that

I'm worried about too. It's just, it's an imbalance in general.

Like you said, there's not even enough midwives,

like, how many did you say we needed in

a country to 1 million in the world? Million.

Yeah. Yeah. In the world. In the world. So I know that has,

that, that's like for me, the worries really start with that. Like how do we get

and make more competent midwives and especially midwife. Black midwives, indigenous midwives. We need people that can [00:40:00] relate to people in their background, speak their language.

I couldn't imagine I always hear this as a midwife and recently as graduated people were so concerned. I'm black too so concerned about there's not enough black midwives. There's not, enough. But then I'm, I've haven't met a Spanish speaking midwife since I've been in practice.

I haven't I know that they're here in Oregon.

But back where I lived in Kentucky,

we just didn't have a big diversity of midwives in general.

I even lived in Kentucky. Frontier Nursing is one

of the number one nurse midwifery schools in America.

And I think it's 85% of those nurse midwives that graduate.

Leave the state of Kentucky and they get out

of there and they find somewhere else they

wanna practice. I think that midwifery just has a

lot that we have to do on, like you said, even a

political level to be known. Insurance companies

are also confused like a midwife.

They're compensating doulas for more money

than they do sometimes the midwives.

It, that doesn't ever make sense. There's just so much [00:41:00] of it.

The continuity of education from coming from

that part of the system. You have a couple different routes.

You've got your traditional route, you've got

your like the pet process, and then you have

your MEAC accredited route.

When I was going to college I started in 21.

There was 11 MEAC accredited schools.

I now believe there's five. Wow. They, there's half of that many.

They're they're hard

to stay accredited. And then don't even get me

started on black midwives

in that dang NARM exam.

That would be a whole podcast on its own.

I can't figure it out, but I can, I do know that there's

a huge imbalance of passing rates for the

NARM exam for black midwives

to become a let's do that podcast. Yeah. We need to do it.

I have an arsenal. I have an arsenal. I definitely

think I can see where some of that stands.

And I think a lot of it comes

from the continuity of education. We don't have enough

preceptors in America, preceptors that we have

just saying mostly white. So there's not enough diversity

in the preceptorship that causes [00:42:00] systemic racism

that causes people to not get the continuity

of their education so that when

they go to take the test, it's been broken.

Whereas their counterparts are getting full fluid,

two year program, they get it done

and then our counterparts are,

it's taking four or five plus years,

and then they wonder why we can't pass it.

So yeah, there's a lot to be

worried about in the midwifery

world and in the future of black and brown

mortality rates and the history of, like you were telling me

earlier, just people having babies

in other countries, like you said they're at

a risk of even losing their population because

people aren't having babies enough.

People are afraid to have babies. And especially I feel,

'cause again, I've got young kids and just in the

last few years since I was a kid, I have seen

the way that children now don't get excited

about starting families. The same, it's scary. It's too expensive.

There's not enough support.

We've gotta, that's just such,

so many foundations we have to fix to help people

feel more safe and protected

to have children in [00:43:00] America.

And there's no joy. There's no joy

having babies. You don't get, you don't

get treated like that. Cover the book. You know how the queen,

it's oh, you had a baby. Why are you telling.

Yeah. That's literally your book says,

I was reading that not long ago. It was talking about how after

you have a baby, it's like, Hey, you did it.

Congratulations. Now go home. Bye.

And nobody's there to, you don't get celebrated the

same or like we said earlier, people celebrate the baby

and they completely forget about the mom.

She's just sitting there crying while

everybody's oh, how cute. Looking at their baby

and not even starting with.

With the family unit in, in, and the country

has gone to animals. I'm sorry. We have every

commercial is a dog wearing a mask, pushing, they the dogs

are selling mattress. Literally they're selling everything.

Yeah. Somehow the Dalai Lama said he came

here I think almost 15 years ago, and he said, what is that?

America loves animals and not children.

And that state, in my mind, we'd rather have

five dogs than to have one human being.

And that's the problem. This country is not itself as a society.

We don't Reverend Life, human life.

We want [00:44:00] to, the book says, oh, have a dog that's

gonna make you healthy.

It doesn't say, have a baby's gonna make you healthy.

It's all about get a pet. And so anyways,

I can go on and on about that. But I think the other part

that I'm concerned about, we're no longer nice.

When you read about the Black Midwife,

she said you had to have humor and patience.

And when I became a midwife, I was talking at the conference,

I was so fortunate they had 25 midwives

and they went around elders saying how they got involved.

But Maestro was, and how they got trained.

But I was fortunate. I had all black trainers. I had two, three

women from Alabama. I had a black midwife from Ghana,

one from Congo, a dark skin Pakistani woman in a dark skin Moroccan doctor is,

I never suffered from the things

I hear my colleagues talk about, the racism.

I was surrounded by love. We spent the money.

We would go after birth, talk and laugh over dinner

with our birth high. We could call each other. It was never I'm afraid if I would call,

they talk about me. It was just, and so midwifery is not nice.

It's not nice anymore. We're using this thing where,

again, this medical model work your,

you work your [00:45:00] midwifery soon to death.

Don't pay her, make her pay you. How does that bring about

love of a family when you're not even training? We're not even training from place of love anymore. It's just a mess. So that's the problem.

In eight years, you might have been

an obstetrician six years to be a midwife.

Two more years be an OB. You don't need that much time.

It's just not a good system. And nursing has to do with it. This whole thing

about being a nurse first and now they

have to have a PhD to be a nurse midwife. Even they're frustrated. First was the LM,

then it was, the CPM and then it was the associate, it was the BS. It was a BSN,

and there was the, and that was the PhD.

A PhD is great for science, for researchers.

Not just make you a great midwife. It's too much numbers in your head.

It gives you too much

fear as far as I'm concerned.

So the whole thing to be,

we need to break it down, rebuild it. Yep. It's,

the system is not working for us. It is broken for sure.

Yeah. Yeah. I think so. And it's built off the wrong concept, like we said. Exactly. It's not, it's definitely

not built for the mamas and

the babies. It's not built for women. It's the male [00:46:00] models. That's residents. Yeah. Stay asleep there with your clothes on.

And even doing births at li by yourself.

I tell the women midwives and doulas we're flock.

We're flock people, female mammals. That's why you see horses running hers. Everything. Female works as a collective.

We're the only ones that are doing birth by ourself. When in fact should be several midwives working together,

laughing, eating, drinking, not alcohol, but drinking food.

Drinking to be together. While they're doing the break.

But not this, just you by yourself. That's not our model.

Of course, you're exhausted. Everyone's burnt out by year eight.

Doulas and midwives. This one person with

someone for five days, nobody does that

in the real world's. A bunch of 'em is singing.

We're a collective. Give us enough money so

we all come together and help each other out and

we, and have a good outcome and

leave loving our work so we can ready

to go back to the next person. Everyone's so burnt out..

It's so sad. Oh yeah. I know. But I just wanna cheer for your words.

Again, Shafia, you're just so inspiring. Thank you.

We are a collective.

I resonate so completely with [00:47:00] that. Israel,

did you have something that you, that is working well,

that you're excited about? I know that, you're a new midwife,

but you've been in birth

work for a number of years, yeah.

There, there are some really good things too going on.

For sure. I feel like COVID really brought

out a huge awakening for people.

People went through COVID and

then said, oh like Shafia said earlier,

I'm not sick. I'm not actually sick. I don't need to go to the hospital.

Moms, I think families just in general, were like, hospitals

are where sick people go, and I don't

wanna put myself in that situation.

So I really think that honestly, COVID really highlighted

the beauty of why home birth was important and

how you can be safe at home. I'm a little bummed

out that I didn't feel like it lasted very long.

I think that riled up consciousness happened

for a couple years, but as soon as people started

taking off the masks, it was easy, right?

For people to just go back into that, what they knew.

And people started going back

to the hospitals more. But it was nice to see people

starting to learn more about, midwives

and doulas during that [00:48:00] time.

And I think that also, like Shafia said, it was, it's hard

when people don't know what a midwife is,

or they get confused sometimes

between what midwives and doulas do.

That I think all spawned from people getting

a little bit more educated about it. Now we have to

figure out how to make that

education more robust and correct.

And then also, some things that I really

love is so in Kentucky we've worked

really hard for the last few years to finally get

insurance to pay for out-of-hospital birth

and to establish a birth center in Kentucky.

It's only one of eight states that still

doesn't have a birth center, which is crazy.

So they're working on it. This year they did pass a bill

that they should be able to start getting

birth centers established in that state.

They're still working on getting insurance

to cover out of hospital birth which I think.

Is really good that they're trying to get it done.

Because yeah, that's something huge.

Now, living here in Oregon, seeing that as an

option for folks that need it with that financial,

that need, that financial stability, seeing that they

have a [00:49:00] program that's you can, you should be

able to have the choice to have a baby

anywhere that you feel comfortable. And so knowing that

the system is working towards getting that as an

option for everyone is where I want,

is what I wanna see in the future.

And then, I think that just in general

the education, the continuity of care

is becoming a little better. I love I think though,

like what Shafia said earlier now that you said it that way,

continuity doesn't just mean more visits. But I have been seeing that

be a thing and that, so I think it starts there.

And so getting in those more visits and then

during those visits laying down the tools

that they need to continue for those first year

at least to be stable, even without

us there as doulas and midwives. Yeah, I think that there's a lot of potential

in the midwifery world. And just in the birth working

world in general, like I, I see it a lot.

People are trying to take control of

perinatal mental health. We're trying to make more tools and resources for folks to get help postpartum and during pregnancy. So I just wanna see more of

those keep [00:50:00] growing. So inspiring. I quoted,

go ahead. Yeah, I was gonna, I was gonna say,

and with that too, we did talk about,

not enough diversity in midwives.

I will say that's probably an exciting thing I would

definitely say is like being a black midwife

is exciting because I know that

I am gonna be able to help moms and babies

and other families in the future get the care

that they need and teach them, especially

using something like this tool like mothering

the mother to be able to really lay out, like I said,

that picture of what birth and postpartum is supposed to look like.

Being a black midwife is exciting. I think that's a good positive thing

in midwifery. And in Kentucky I was, there was only a

few black midwives most of them are nurse midwives.

There were very few home birth midwives. And that seems very

similar in Oregon, which is very surprising.

I thought that we would have more,

like direct entry midwives here in Oregon licensed,

but I can understand that it's really nice that this

state also allows traditional midwifery,

whereas like a state like Kentucky doesn't. So I love that there's also the like[00:51:00]

options of you can be licensed or traditional but

I would love to see more, more black midwives

and indigenous midwives in this area as well.

Because that's just something we're gonna

have to make our futures even brighter.

Gosh, it's so exciting. I read a statistic a while ago

that critical mass or that third state of being

that we've heard about. First an idea is ignored, then it's heavily ridiculed and

finally it's accepted as self-evident.

Schumer quote to get to that third stage has been

theorized to be PI 3.14%. By that point, people, even if they

don't choose it for themself, know what it means. And so for, I'm really

excited to share that there

are now seven US states

that have crossed that critical mass number.

And that's Idaho, Montana, Hawaii, Pennsylvania,

Wisconsin, and Utah.[00:52:00]

And these are states that all have

very low in Alaska, low number of

African American people like the south.

Where we're at is where we.

Exactly. And I'm glad that's happening.

I'm in Oregon, 3% black, 4% black, whatever it is.

It's a great state. I'm benefiting from what this state does for white people.

I'm here, but in Alabama, Georgia, Mississippi,

Florida Tennessee, Kentucky, Texas, where the masses are.

Those are all, of course, they're also red states,

but those are also like, hard. But at the same time,

I'm glad to say, because even still, even with that,

there are so many black women who are

becoming midwives is really, yes.

So we definitely see a full circle. People get it and

they're doing it even though it's difficult in this state,

even though the state's not legal,

they're still doing it. Yep. So that yeah is commendable.

It is so commendable. It's so exciting.

It's something to celebrate. And I think once.

Most of the states are over this critical mass.

I think we will have the turning point that

we've all [00:53:00] been waiting for. And so I just wanted

to say the lower few states, if you live in these

states you probably feel the pressure so different

than what we're talking about in these states

where critical mass has already occurred.

Like I, I don't know about how you two feel,

but I used to also live and practice in Oregon.

And even 10 years ago, it felt like pretty much

everyone you ran into would be like,

oh yeah, I know of a midwife. I know my sister or my friend,

someone had understand what the concept is.

And Oregon sits at 2.7% in 2023 of home births,

plus another about 0.6% that our birth center.

So Oregon is just right at that level about to hit it.

But the lowest states, the ones that are still, even below 1% home birth rates is California because of the volume of people.

Even though there are quite a few home birth,

there's so many people that live [00:54:00] there Illinois,

Alabama, Massachusetts, Mississippi, Connecticut, Rhode Island, Nebraska,

New Jersey, and Louisiana.

And so if you're living in any of those states, it

probably doesn't feel like what we're talking about

because all of those states are below 1% on birth rate. I want, and I'm glad you're saying that,

but if we could just measure even how many

people use midwives peer of, I think I would love to have a full picture.

How many use nurse midwives

in home birth and birth? If we could get that it, it might look bigger.

Because a lot of people, even because I think you're right,

because so many people just use the OB in the hospital,

but why not a midwife in the hospital? Even that counts. They don't even know that

they have an option because when you call up and say, I'm pregnant, they give you the ob.

They don't say, oh, by the way, do you want the midwife department? If you don't know that, you don't get that. They don't tell you.

I've been asking that same question. I wish I knew why providers

it is a gatekeeping thing or something. 'cause it just feels like it's, yeah.

When you meet your clients, you give them

all the information, let them decide if they,

you should tell 'em like the OBS [00:55:00] will or surgeons.

You've got nurse midwives that work in hospitals.

You've got home birth midwives. You've got traditional midwives that aren't gonna carry any meds. Like it's what they want. So it's so curious. To me, I think the same, 'cause I have clients that come from the hospital to home birth or birth center. And then they're just like, we didn't, they didn't tell me about you.

We didn't even know. And that's just, it's such a

missed opportunity for, and of course

it's because it's the system. 'cause I'm just like,

why wouldn't the OBS be like you man you're pretty crunchy.

You should go check out that birth center down the street. But they don't.

Economics and power. It's just that, yeah. I'm better.

And there was a midwife problem. And the 1920s and it's still a midwife problem. They don't say that, but there is, we can see it.

It's not what you said, it's what you do. Because we're having this conversation. They didn't like midwives back then.

They eradicated all midwives. The reason why we talk

about black midwives, because of segregation. We got to practice longer,

but they annihilated the Native American Indian,

they stopped the Irish, the Italian, they knocked all that out.

We were the last to stand because of segregation, thank gods.

[00:56:00] But the point is that there's still a midwife problem. And that's why we're having this conversation until we get the powers to be like,

we look at Europe, right? We look at

Northern Europe where they midwives. I'm told midwives the norm.

Everyone gets a midwife in Finland, in Denmark and Norway or Sweden.

And so we see models that work and these

are educated people here and we see the good outcome,

but yet they don't wanna replicate that.

So it's not like they don't know. They do know.

We know we, we know. They know. They read the same books.

We know this, but yet they did for some reason.

They don't wanna do after all these years.

And I met with ACOG presidents, I was all part of that.

Running with that circle, with these yearly presidents. They're gonna support midwifery men, able fight for the conversation ACNM

they promised me to get made. We're gonna get made,

we're gonna do transfer,

we're gonna work in UN and we're gonna be partners, but this I did in Europe.

We don't wanna lose the money because I get five.

Exactly. If I get five sections and they're gonna go to this lady,

or this person's a midwife, I'm gonna, I'm gonna lose money.

Yep. And so it's not about health, it's about [00:57:00] commerce.

Yeah. Profit before people is the poison

that we're all drinking and the country's wrong.

If the country gave me enough money

to live off of, correct. We wouldn't have to have

this economic war, you both are so inspiring.

I'm so glad you know each other and you're right there. I'm just, I know I'm cheering forever. I'm cheering forever. For both of you,

thank you so much for being a part of this conversation.

For meeting this conversation. Yes. And I just wanna end that

because I am an optimist. It is getting better though we can't see it.

Sometimes it's like the current under the wall,

you can't see the waves, but then it comes up,

this beautiful thing comes up. So it's still growing. We know that it's gonna get better.

Yeah, we're gonna hold onto that optimism

and we're gonna ride that wave all the way to the future.

That's right. I love that ride. That wave. Thank you. Thank you so much. And Israel is one of our new waves coming forward and

so excited that Israel is maybe gonna join us

for future episodes and just so grateful to both of you.

Thank you. Thank you. [00:58:00] Thanks for having me. Yeah, thank you so much. It's such an honor. Let's say they can find the book

anywhere books are sold, they can go onto Amazon

and download Mothering the Mother. They can go to shafiamonroe.com.

As a courtesy. I have two links. Some folks don't like Amazon.

I think the other one's called, I think called Good read.

But either one will bring you to the book. So we still want people

to get the book in their hand. This book is not for midwives,

it's for the everyday person. It's for those who

wanna care for the new mother, for the new birthing person.

So don't, we don't wanna categorize,

it was not written for the midwife, for the doulas, written for the mom.

So I want moms and dads and

grandmas to get the book. We're gonna link it in

the show notes and encourage all of the midwives listening to buy several copies

for their lending library. And we just are

so excited to celebrate you. Thank you. Thank you.

Thank you. Thank you for having me. You all have a wonderful morning.

Yes. Thank you so much. I'll see you Israel. Israel. Israel.

You'll coming to my garden soon. Hope I'll see you.

I would absolutely love that. Yep. Okay. Perfect. Love to you both. Thank you. You [00:59:00] take care. Bye-bye. Bye-bye.

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