Kayla Branstetter
===

[00:00:00] We know our bodies. We do. Yeah. And I've encountered it. I'm sure a lot of women have encountered it. Shortly after COVID, I was

having these symptoms. My blood work's coming

fine, coming back normal.

And then other tests were ran and they're

like there's nothing wrong with you. And I'm like, I'm telling

you that I don't feel right. Yeah. It is so dismissive, right? When they're like, my test can't show

anything, so therefore

there's nothing wrong. It's so dismissive. Yes. And narrative medicine

is bringing that

agency and that power back to the patient

of they're a participant in

let's have those

conversations of, I realize the labs say this,

but maybe we should try

something else. I think let's not be dismissive

toward a patient's experience. Yeah. Because they know their bodies.

​

welcome back to the

Midwifery Wisdom Podcast. I'm your host Augustine, and [00:01:00] I'm

so excited to be joined by Kayla. Kayla is an English instructor in Crowder

College, and she teaches literature,

creative, nonfiction, and composition.

She's also a TEDx speaker and educator,

and her work centers on women's health,

narrative medicine, reproductive trauma,

and the cultural expectations placed

on women's bodies and resilience. She's currently completing a

doctorate of education in healthcare

with research focused on narrative

medicine in women's healthcare.

Her forthcoming book Don't Be In

Athena, examines reproductive health

medical gaslighting on the myth of

silent endurance through storytelling,

research, and at times dark humor. Welcome, Kayla. Thank you for having me, Augustine. It's such a pleasure and

this is such a fun topic. It's heavy, right?

It is heavy. What a break. What a break from a lot of our providers and

listeners who are dealing with numbers and

facts and figures and labs and like [00:02:00] vicarious

trauma and all kinds of things, it

feels like a relief when I look at your work. I got to review your book. Thank you so much for

sharing that, and welcome.

I can just feel like the relief the magic that is narrative medicine and storytelling,

and I just would love it if you could, in your

own words, tell us what is this all about? What do you do?

I feel like I need to go back in time

because I have an interesting story. When I started college in 2006,

I was actually a pre-med major

and I enrolled in my biology class.

I absolutely hated it. Hated it and I switched my major

to English and fell in love with

English literature, with writing. And life happened. I am the daughter of a teen mom who

gave birth in the 1980s in a traditional

southwest Missouri, where that was taboo. So I saw everything that my mom had

to [00:03:00] endure, and then I went through

infertility and it felt like

the same people

who judged her were judging me.

And then miscarriage and I

had friends approach me and

were telling me their stories.

And this idea of writing this book

came about, and this is where I

believe narrative medicine found me. I wasn't searching for narrative

medicine, if that makes sense.

Yeah. Totally.

I was invited to an artful symposium at

Missouri Southern State University, and

that introduced me to narrative medicine

professionals,

and I realized what I was doing.

I've always had this

passion for storytelling. Always. When I was growing up, I frequently

escaped through

the use of journaling

a diary or even creating

my own stories.

So I understand the power of

narrative, and so I find it full circle

that I initially began

my college career

wanting to be a medical provider.

It's just, it looks different now.

Yeah. In narrative [00:04:00] medicine. Yeah. Yeah. And I'm reminded

of there are a lot of

midwives who also

grow up thinking,

oh, I wanna become a baby doctor. I wanna become,

that's what our culture has. Our culture has a container for that.

And yet once they

really follow their passion,

they discover, oh no, I wanna be a midwife.

And so I, I just feel like reminded

of that beautiful journey of the

difference between being an expert

on high compared to being someone

who holds space for transformation. And it feels like you also discovered

that in a circuitous route. In your doctorate, you are

doing research on this process.

Can you define what is narrative medicine

and what is your research all about? Narrative medicine, in all honesty, it

probably has been around for centuries. We're just now putting a label to it. And it was established, one of

the founding members [00:05:00] was Rita

Charon, and she's a professor at

Columbia University in New York City.

And she is an MD and she, in one

of her books, she talks about watching

this play Wit, and it's about an English

professor undergoing cervical cancer. And just this cold, this coldness between

being diagnosed with cancer and the

physicians, and not just the physicians,

like every medical professional she

encounters, while this horrible news has

been delivered to her, and it's also the radio

or radiology tech of just asking her name.

And not having any communication

outside of like date of birth. What's your name? Okay. I'm moving you to this next room. And Rita talks about how as a

physician it, like at first she was

offended by this is how

this writer was

depicting the medical community.

And then she takes

a step back [00:06:00] and it. It really challenged her on how

maybe some patients were

seeing the medical community.

So narrative medicine,

I actually have my

literature review out

here in front of me. I was trying to be as

prepared as possible. Awesome. So narrative medicine

is defined as

a focus on the patient's needs

and

the empowerment of their active

participation in the

healthcare process. So we're seeing

patients as a participant

when in their healthcare

they're not,

it's not this

transactional relationship.

They have a say in their

medical chart, tells a story.

And in interviewing women for my

book, I don't know how many times

I encountered women

who initially had no

idea what was going on

with their bodies. They knew they

couldn't lose weight. They. They felt like they were on emotional

rollercoaster and anytime they'd go to

the doctor in their minds, I don't wanna

generalize, I don't wanna

say it's every

physician because it is not, [00:07:00] the physicians

that they initially visited said, eat healthier

and exercise well later they,

they have PCOS.

Yeah. And so it's a lot harder to say,

just eat right and lose weight.

And so it shifts that you can look

at a patient's chart and you can

come to your own conclusion in

your assumptions about the patient. But there is a story behind

those numbers

in the patient's chart

and this is so relevant.

My gosh, there's so many cases of

obstetric violence coming to light.

We just posted yesterday, reshared

this story of, a woman who was taken

to court via zoom while in labor Yes. In the hospital for a

court ordered cesarean. This is a Yes. A viral story right now. And at the same time we just, we see

so little regard in the medical field for

the, that there being a person home. And then you apply it to [00:08:00] all

women's reproductive rights

disappearing across the country. And it feels like this is such important

work now in midwifery, this is like

a hallmark of midwifery, is that

you are serving the whole person.

That their story they're centered

in the entire experience. Informed decision making

is at the core of midwifery. So our audience will understand this

completely, but about five to 20% of

folks who choose to birth with midwives. Will need to be transferred for medical

intervention at some point during their care.

Just, that's just how the numbers fall out. And so our audience deals with like vicarious

trauma where they witness it happening

and they feel completely powerless. And I think this concept or this language

that you are reviving, even though it's like

centuries old around the campfire, we

now have language to describe what is

essential in emotional healing from trauma.

And even [00:09:00] what I think you, your work could

do, I got to read some of the stories that

you have, Penn. And it's just so illustrative of

how the medical system especially needs

to wake up and become trauma informed. There's such intersectionality in your work. How have you been able to balance

all of these different influences?

This book was the hardest book to

write, but I can imagine and you have

their traumas become my traumas. They're my stories. Yeah. Yeah. And it's so hard also fueling me because

they deserve to have their voices heard. And I do, there are some chapters that

criticize some of the medical community,

but it's also fueling me to better prepare

future healthcare professionals for the field.

Because what literature can

do for healthcare professionals

is introduce them to grief. Yeah, introduce them to death. Introduce them to different

cultures to [00:10:00] challenge their thinking. And my goal is with the narrative medicine

that I'm hoping to adopt at my institution,

is I wanna challenge my students

to be aware of maybe their internal

biases they may have over a specific

group of people or a specific gender.

And challenge that, and make it come

to surface and make them realize, okay,

are can you treat people with respect? Do you have a biases toward

a specific group of people? But not only that, I don't feel like if

it's someone is a midwife, a doctor,

or a nurse dealing with women in

their reproductive care or labor and

delivery, you're going to encounter

where a baby's gonna be born stillborn.

And how do we prepare? A healthcare professional for that moment. And then not only that, how do we

stop the burnout with physicians

and nurses and midwifery or

midwifery if we don't prepare them? [00:11:00] And so narrative medicine, as much as it is

about patients, it's also about allowing our

healthcare professionals to be reflective

when these tragic moments happen.

Yeah, it is so heavy. And obviously in researching

this and writing this, you had to

absorb a lot of pain, a lot of stories. In order to transmute it. What do you think the process is like? I wanna talk about the provider, but I

also wanna talk about the clients, the

patients, the people at the center of

these traumas or losses or processes.

And your focus has been

specifically reproductive health. Yes. And I think that's fascinating. You got that from both ends, from your

mother's experience and your experience. What do you think narrative medicine as

a practice, like learning how to voice your

story, how do you think that affects people?

I think most of us wanna feel heard. Yeah. And right now I think there's a huge [00:12:00] mistrust

between the medical community and

the public, at least in the United States. I think we're seeing Yeah, that

there is a massive disconnect. And if we think, not to sound cliche,

but if we think about HU humans

over thousands and thousands of

years, what's been the one constant?

It's the power of storytelling and community. Yeah. And our ability to feel heard. And so anytime I encountered a woman who

has this experience with one doctor such

as PCOS, and it's oh just eat right and diet

or diet and exercise and you'll be healthier. And when they finally found a

physician that was let's run some tests.

Let's see. And then PCOS comes is their diagnosis. They finally felt heard and validated

about what their body is going through. We know our bodies. We do. Yeah. And I've encountered it. I'm sure a lot of [00:13:00] women have encountered it. Shortly after COVID, I was

having these symptoms. My blood work's coming

fine, coming back normal.

And then other tests were ran and they're

like there's nothing wrong with you. And I'm like, I'm telling

you that I don't feel right. Yeah. It is so dismissive, right? When they're like, my test can't show

anything, so therefore

there's nothing wrong. It's so dismissive. Yes. And narrative medicine

is bringing that

agency and that power back to the patient

of they're a participant in

let's have those

conversations of, I realize the labs say this,

but maybe we should try

something else. I think let's not be dismissive

toward a patient's experience. Yeah. Because they know their bodies. Yeah. Yeah. So now let's go in and look at it

from the provider's perspective.

So let's say that they've had a transfer with

somebody who needed medical attention

and the birth did not go as expected. Maybe there [00:14:00] was interventions,

maybe there was a cesarean. Maybe just the mother

didn't feel heard or met. And now they're meeting with their client

postpartum and the client is so upset.

Not necessarily at them, but at their experience. What can providers who are trauma

in informed and aware of how

important this is, what can they do? Like in your research how can

you help guide the providers? First and foremost, I think you just

need to provide a safe space for the

mother to express her grievances.

Uhhuh. And she probably had this, had a specific

plan on how she wanted to deliver her child. And I think you need to be mindful which

communities because if we're looking at

statistics, black women are more likely to be. Pressured into having a C-section. And then after that, having their

pain dismissed and then having their

symptoms dismissed.

If we look at the statistics with

black mothers

in the [00:15:00] United States, it's

alarming, very alarming. Three, three to four times more likely to

perish during the process of childbirth. In fact, childbirth has gotten

more dangerous since the 1960s. It's very alarming. I agree. It's it was safer for my grandmother who

is 87 to give birth in the 1950s than it is

for the 21st century American woman.

And Exactly. That's across the board. And that doesn't even

mention black mothers. So if you Yeah. That's a systemic failing. Oh, 100% for sure. For sure. 100%. But what about

the providers who get it? They're like, I know these statistics. I know these problems. I'm sitting in front of a

patient and they are in tears.

How can I guide them other than

just listening, which I'm willing to do. Yes. What tools can I give them? I actually did a TED talk on this of what I saw. I did a TED Talk on this, on what I discovered

from a writer's perspective

because some of these women that

I interviewed were actually [00:16:00] strangers.

They were strangers, and they

just wanted to feel heard. They just wanted their story down. So one of the strategies that I

offered in my TED Talk was

sometimes talking is just too painful. It just is. Let 'em write. Offer a space for them to

write it out and get it out. There were a couple women that their

experiences were just too painful to,

they didn't wanna talk to me on a person.

They emailed me some of their stories,

or and that's how we communicated was

because they just could

not talk to me. It was too painful.

And they were okay with reading, rereading

their traumas, but they did not wanna talk.

And you may have patients

where they're not talking. They're upset,

but they're just not gonna talk.

And I think that providing

other ways to communicate outside of

yes, creating that safe space to listen, but

maybe also finding different avenues for

the patient to even communicate to you.

Yeah. Yeah. Which I know is easier

said than done.

I [00:17:00] know the statistics on the amount of

times that physicians have or healthcare

providers have with their patients I

think it's what, seven to 10 minutes.

So that's a lot to cover in

a finite amount of time. Yeah. Yeah.

Luckily community-based midwives

usually book an hour with their clients.

But yeah, inside the

system it is very alarming. How the insurance dictates

how much time they can spend and

that Yeah, that's, no wonder. No wonder, basically.

No wonder it happens the way it does. Yeah. And they're getting burnout

because they're charting. Yeah.

They have less time with the patient and

that's not why they went into medicine.

Yeah. Oh, so alarming. I can just picture this scenario. There's a midwife who is trying to help

her traumatized client process an unwished

for outcome, and she's I'm here for you.

You can call me. I'll come do extra visits if you need them. Here's a tool I read about or I saw on a TED

talk where you can write out your story

and then we can read it together, [00:18:00] or you

don't ever even have to share it with me.

It's just about you getting the story out. If you feel like you need to

be heard I'm here for you.

Yeah. How about the client who comes through

that process is okay, I am, I'm through

the shock and awe and even some

of the grief, and now I'm really angry.

I wanna actually do something about this. Have you encountered

that in narrative medicine? I have not encountered

patients filing

a grievance against a hospital for

an outcome that did not obviously

go the way that they had hoped.

A lot of the women I interviewed, they just seemed so dismissed

from the doctor that they felt

powerless in even taking action.

And so when they did have an

opportunity to have their stories

told they did capitalize on that.

And I think there needs to be more

awareness on like health literacy for

patients, but also what a patient's rights are.

Yeah. [00:19:00] And I looked up.

They can start with documenting.

They can document their experience

and as if they can be as descriptive as

possible, the better, which is interesting

'cause I'm like, I am an English instructor

and I teach composition writing.

And one the rhetorical modes

that I teach is descriptive writing.

They must write descriptive essay.

And sometimes my students feel like it's

just like creative writing, but I tell them

poets are the best writers in the world

'cause when you're writing a poem,

you're focusing on every single word.

Every word plays a role.

So when we're writing descriptive, and

if you're trying to file a complaint and

you're trying to document, you wanna

be as specific as possible and you

can file an internal hospital grievance.

And then if you're not getting anywhere,

you can escalate it externally. If the hospital like.

Fails to respond.

Yeah. But they also have protection of

their attorneys And [00:20:00] maybe, yeah. It's hard.

It is hard. It's hard to get action. Yeah.

They're very protected.

But it has to start somewhere. It does.

Because one, one in 10 women

experiencing obstetric violence is insanity.

Yes. And if anything, maybe just get

some clarification of, Hey, I want

access to my medical records.

I want to examine them. I want to know.

And you have a right to your medical records.

Absolutely. And I've have spoken to, and I've

spoken to women who have read

their charts and they were alarmed

by what their chart did or did not say.

What was written about them or

how a major part of their case

was just absent from the writing.

Yes. Yes. Or misspelled, or they were critical

of even the grammar and yeah,

it was just a misrepresentation.

And I feel if you're reading your medical

chart and you as the patient look at

it and [00:21:00] reflect, I didn't say that during

the meeting, they should have a Right.

Yeah. To go back through and

say, that's not what I said.

And you do, you can alter your own

medical records by petitioning the medical

department that stores the records

in whatever medical system you're in.

Don't, yeah. So don't, yeah, there's a

general disempowerment and

disenfranchisement for sure.

And this is where midwifery

plays such a big role.

As a senior midwife, I'll speak to the midwives

in the audience now and just say, if you have

a patient after a poor outcome, you can

absolutely support them in speaking up and

saying their own story and feeling heard.

But you could also be a patient advocate.

And you can help them do the very

technical research that is required in

order to know how to amend a chart,

how to file a grievance, and how to

even initiate a lawsuit for wrongdoing.

Because in that vulnerable state of

postpartum or after a loss, that person

who was wronged is not always in a

position [00:22:00] to advocate for themselves.

They might want to, but feel unable to. And this is one of the

wonderful roles of

doulas and midwives, being able to see

it from a very close up perspective and

help find the resources that are needed.

And they are everywhere they are.

The resources are printed, and you

can find how to file a grievance.

And I'm glad you bring up midwives

and doulas because in my research.

Like I don't feel like women are fully

aware of what options they have with

their prenatal and postpartum care. Correct?

Correct. I think so many women and myself

included, were just go to the OB

GYN and give birth in a hospital.

Yeah. I don't feel like I had a lot of knowledge

of my body when it came to my like

reproductive years on trying to reproduce.

I don't feel like I knew a lot of my

options and choices [00:23:00] on during the

pregnancy and even afterwards.

So I think it's so important we educate

women on what their choices are.

You're so right, and honestly this is one

of the like sad parts of it is women don't

know by design because we're actually

living in a profit first instead of people first.

Medical paradigm, right? Yes.

So it is up to each of us to share

and ring that bell so that other

people can see another way through.

And certainly we all know, all of us

midwives know that women get really

superior care in midwifery settings.

Whether that's hospital home birth

centers, or even just clinics that are

offering prenatal care only midwifery care

lasts an hour and is very thorough and is

trauma informed and is helping people

process the whole body, whole being,

transformation that is the childbearing

year and not just looking at your uterus.

So it's such a, yes, such a

departure from obstetrics.

But [00:24:00] oftentimes obstetrics needs to be

involved because there are medical

emergencies, there are reasons

why medical care is necessary.

And even though the medical world has not

adopted trauma-informed care or whole

patient care, yet when a client has a doula

or a midwife, you can be that bridge that

they're missing in that hospital system.

And that's amazing for the client, but it can

be very exhausting for you, the provider.

And so one of the other things that

I wanted to talk about is vicarious

trauma or secondary trauma.

When you see or you support a client

through a miscarriage or a fetal demise

or a traumatic birth or obstetric

violence or a loss, you are gonna have

trauma, like aside from helping that

client get navigate the process, you

have to process your own trauma.

So let's talk about how narrative

medicine can be applied to a provider

just trying to sit with their own pain. Yes.

They actually do workshops and narrative

medicine [00:25:00] workshops specifically for

providers and Oh, that's so awesome.

Medical students, and I'll bring up the

data real quick because what we don't

want narrative medicine to be is I don't

want physicians or anybody in the

medical community to feel like this is just

one more class that you need to take.

I do not want it to feel like, oh, while you're

seeing patients and you're charting and

you're making these, the best diagnoses

from the information that's available to you.

It works alongside what a doctor

is already doing, not separate. ' cause it I've been in teaching a long

time and usually when you feel like

there's a new trend, you're like, oh my

gosh, what do they want me to do now? That's not what we want

narrative medicine to be. And so in these workshops it shifts the

physician's orientation from problem solving

alone towards [00:26:00] sustained understanding.

And it positions illness as a

collaborative process between

the patient and in the clinician. So in these workshops.

What narrative medicine does is it allows

physicians or anybody in the healthcare,

I know I keep saying physicians, but

any, really anybody who is going to be

interacting with patients and interacting

with patients after such a significant

loss, whether you're driving the news that

they're infertile, there is a miscarriage,

there's gonna be a pregnancy loss.

Because you need to internalize that.

You don't wanna just turn completely

cold and apathetic toward it.

Even go from one room

to the next room and it, they allow

these clinics, allow physicians to have

that reflective component to it of

hitting that pause button so they can.

Acknowledge that something significant

has happened and narrative

medicine extends [00:27:00] the relational

framework inward, and it offers clinicians

a means to confront the emotional,

moral and ethical burdens that define

contemporary medicine practice. So many healthcare professionals, they do face

ethical challenges such as moral distress

arising from not being able to have the

resources, conflicts among institutional

policies, patient-centered care, end of

life decision making under indecision

and pressures to prioritize efficiency

over ethical deliberation and their

amplified environments characterized

by shortened clinical encounters.

And in the United States, healthcare

by and large is pro for-profit and

office visit links in the US have steadily

declined from

60 minutes to 30 minutes for

in 1975 to approximately 12 to

seven minutes respectfully. So we're, there's a lot that a physician

or people working in the healthcare

community in the United States are

undergoing that narrative medicine

addresses these ethical strains by [00:28:00] providing

legitimacy to their emotional labor.

And it creates structure spaces for

clinicians to reflect on their own

moral clinical under uncertainty in the

effective dimension dimensions of care. So evidence demonstrates that narrative

medicine workshops typically involving

close literary reading, reflective writing on

emotionally challenging clinically clinical

encounters and facilitated group dialogue.

Strengthen resilience by helping clinicians

integrate difficult experiences into their

own coherent narratives rather than

internalizing them as a personal failure. So if there is a loss, doctors may

feel like they, maybe they could

have done something to save them. And what narrative medicine does,

just like the patient, it provides

that safe space for them to reflect.

And if they do a workshop

together, again, that storytelling

component brings people together.

And when they do encounter a

narrative medicine workshop.

Don't want them to internalize a

miscarriage [00:29:00] or pregnancy loss or a

bad, or a, an appointment that didn't

go the way that we anticipated.

They also need to face it and they

need to face it in a safe space. And then they can connect with

other healthcare providers that can

help provide that additional support.

Beautiful. And that is what's needed, right? It is peer support. Yes. But it's also making room for your own

processing separate from the patient.

Like you need to go through it yourself. Yes. And this is just such a good reminder. Yes. And that's the power of literature. It's, really, it is that you get the

opportunity to not just talk story, but Yes. Actually write it down, review

it, reflect on it, come back. Yeah. And I do have hope that the

healthcare community is.

We are going in the right direction

because over the last few decades,

medical humanities is

on the rise. It is on the rise.

So I think it's something that when we

[00:30:00] look at the statistics and the data right

now in the news and the United States,

it doesn't, it looks, it does not look good.

But in the literature reviews,

medical humanities is on the rise.

Two universities near me just adopted

a medical humanities certificate

and I'm in the works of adopting

a narrative medicine certificate.

And Alice Walton just constructed a

medical school next to an art museum.

And so much of the medical students'

training is actually tied to the art museum. Wow.

Tell me more. What is this? Yes, it, they just opened so

they what, like next month they'll, their first

year medical students have just finished

their first program, but it's near

the Crystal Bridges Museum

of American Art and yeah i've been there.

It's a gorgeous museum. It's beautiful.

Yeah. It's not that far from where I live, but

she built a medical school close to that

campus and they are training their medical

students that there's so much to medicine.

It's [00:31:00] not just a science, it's also an art.

And the art museum is a part of

the medical students curriculum.

Wow. Wow.

So it's not going anywhere.

We, there are small pockets of,

I think we

are finally looking at medicine as we are

viewing patient's mind, body,

and soul. Yeah.

Finally, it's starting to break through.

One of my favorite memories of

my life actually is joining a singing

group in that echo chamber.

On the the Crystal Bridges property.

Oh, yes. Oh, yes. Do you know, it's like a

Kiva and it has

the most extraordinary resonance.

Maybe that was a temporary exhibit.

It was extraordinary memory.

They're expanding their indigenous art

collection and yeah, last time I

visited with my daughters

and one of my daughter's friends.

They were remodeling the entire

museum, but the medical school's not far.

The medical school is constructed.

But I [00:32:00] was impressed that with the

construction of this medical school,

that it's tied to the art museum.

And so I have hope the medical

humanities literature is on the rise.

I think narrative medicine is starting

to expand and medical schools are

starting to recognize that art plays such

a pivotal role in their education as well.

Amazing, amazing.

Kayla, let's switch gears now.

Tell us about this book. What is an Athena and why

don't we wanna be one? In my research, I struggled

to come up with a title.

At first, I was gonna title my book Choices

because these women made their choices.

And my goal for this book is

I want most women to read

this book and see themselves.

In this book, if they are going through

something similar to what one of these

women have endured, I want this book to

be a book of survival and hope that you will

get through whatever you're going through.

Women, you have women behind [00:33:00] you.

And I read a book called Off With Her Head

and it, this book was this new perspective on

history on how women have been depicted,

women of the past, modern day women.

I wrote a blog about Athena, and when

I did research on Medusa's story was

interesting and I'm playing on, I used

the Roman poet Ovid interpretation

of Medusa, and in his interpretation of

Medusa, Medusa was born immortal.

She was the only mortal.

Sister of the three Gogans, she

was beautiful, intelligent, and pure.

She elected not to get married. Instead,

she was going to serve as

a priestess to the Goddess Athena.

And according to Ovid, Poseidon

rapes Medusa in Athena's temple,

and Athena transforms [00:34:00] Medusa into

the Gorgan that she's so famous for

today instead of going after Poseidon.

And as a result, Medusa could, she

has this power to turn men into stone.

She, and it's interesting how you look

at it, because Athena can be viewed

as, we don't want to victimize women.

To where they become monsters

or, and we see that so often.

If we look at the news today, how

often do we demonize women who

have been sexually assaulted?

What were you wearing?

Why were you out drinking?

Why were you out that late?

You can run in his life if you come forward.

And sometimes it's women who are the

front runners of tearing down other women.

And so my book Don't be an Athena.

So many of these women that I interviewed

had endured so much, whether it was

medical gaslighting or societal values.

[00:35:00] Some of it was. Women were

also tearing down women.

So don't be an Athena is about, let's not

make another woman into a monster

'cause what would've happened if

Athena

empowered Medusa into being a survivor

instead of turning her into a monster?

Like how, what could be accomplished

in the world today if we empowered

women from their traumas and tragedies?

So important to look at

this from this it's legend. It's, it's mythology.

Like I feel empowered just from

knowing how ancient this conflict is.

Yes. It's not a 21st century concept.

Women have been enduring this type

of discrimination for thousands and

thousands of years, and unfortunately,

women have been a huge part

of perpetuating the patriarchy.

Yes. And if you notice even women of history,

if you're willing to [00:36:00] sacrifice so much for

the patriarchy, you're one of the first

ones to be sacrificed in that system.

Oh, that's powerful. Explain that. If you are

part of victimizing women

into keeping their situations, you

don't have any more protection

than the woman you're victimizing

because whenever you are,

what we're seeing in society is. You make a mistake, they're

gonna remind you of it. Oh yeah. And they're gonna hold

you accountable for it. Yeah. But I think like

your point with Athena is

that Medusa didn't even make a mistake.

No, she didn't. Medusa was hunted and raped.

Yes. And she bore the punishment of her rapist.

And I think that happens in

modern society all too often.

We see it so often that these Poseidon

was a powerful God who he got what

he wanted with, without consequence.

And how often do you see

that sounds like right now, yes.

You [00:37:00] have very powerful individuals,

men who have been able to.

Torture and traumatize vulnerable

women like Medusa and not

be held accountable for it. And there were women

who allowed it to happen.

Not only allowed, but actually facilitated.

Participated in it. Yes.

And it's the women who have been going

to court and has been held accountable. Yeah.

We all know what we're talking about there.

Yes. Anyway, what I would just say is I just love

this parallel because it's so good when

you're in like the torture of your own story.

It's so powerful to look out and see pattern

recognition in other story and to see yourself,

like you said, you hope people do when they

read your book, is to see yourself in the story.

That's what's the power of

storytelling is that you're not alone. Yes.

And yet you don't have to fully integrate

that whole person the way you do when

you're sitting and [00:38:00] telling stories together.

When you're reading literature, when

you're reading story, you can just be in the

story and not the whole person's drama.

Yes. It's, I don't know how to say it any better

than that, but like it's like a, it's like a drop

of medicine instead of the whole bottle.

Yes. It's a more accurate dose,

you know what I'm saying?

And that these women are not alone.

They're able to experience some,

but not only that, it allows women to

empathize with other women's decisions.

Yeah. Say more about that.

And I actually had a close friend, she

recently finished my book and she is.

I have friends from all walks of life. She's more pro-life.

She's, and my book addresses

abortion and other issues. And what she told me was, she goes,

I didn't agree with every choice that

these women made, but she goes, but

what this book taught me was [00:39:00] empathy.

She goes, I didn't agree

with it, but I understood it. And she goes,

that's powerful. And that made me empathize with

what women are going through.

And to me, that's powerful. It's such a powerful yes.

Of I believe this way. And you're entitled to continue to

believe that way, but at least open

your mind and see the situation that

this individual was in before you cast

judgment or don't cast judgment at all.

And I feel like that was such a powerful

lesson, and that's what I hope a lot

of women get is okay, I may have.

Sometimes life just gives you two bad

choices and you have to make the best of

the two worst choices given to you and

It's easy as an outsider to read some of

these women's stories and think that you

are going to make a different decision.

But if your situation was exactly what

this woman's situation is, without the

support, without the resources, would

you have made a different decision?

Love it. Your book spans so many different

generations ages [00:40:00] decisions. Yes.

And it, it's all focused on women's health.

It's to me, I was reading it and thinking, oh,

this is like an updated vagina monologues.

Like I love this. Yes. There's so much in this. And I'm just so excited

for people to get access.

When do you publish? Where can they find it?

Where can people follow you? Yes, they can follow me on my

website and it's Kayla Branstetter.

I'm having issues with the internet on it.

You can find me on LinkedIn, Facebook.

My Facebook is my personal account,

I'm not gonna lie between being a mom

working on a doctorate and a book.

It's a lot updating different

social media accounts. Oh, so you're human.

That's fantastic. I think people will wanna

follow you more than ever. Yeah.

You can follow me in my Instagram

and you're gonna see like my kids. That's awesome.

That's awesome. We'll put all those links in the show notes

and we'll certainly put your website.

Your book is being published in how long?

Very soon. Yes, July 20th is the date.

[00:41:00] Pre-order should be happening anytime. I'm just waiting on the

form from my publisher. As far as I know it should be

available and I know don't judge

on Amazon and other resources.

We do the best we can.

Yeah, it's the quickest way I know, but

I am, yeah, we do the best we can.

I am gonna have my books

and some independent bookstores.

That was so important to me. Awesome.

But as far as like a global audience, Amazon,

it will probably be the quickest way.

It's not there yet. It will be there. Like I said,

I'm just waiting on my publisher. The book cover is designed

July 20th is the date.

So, exciting. Congratulations. I'm so excited.

Yes. This has been like a

five and a half year project. I can only imagine.

Kayla, it's been a pleasure. Thank you so much again for joining us

to talk story about narrative medicine.

We wish you all the best. Thank you so much.

​[00:42:00]